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Catalonia and regional self-determination

Discussion in 'Serious' started by Risky, 2 Oct 2017.

  1. Harlequin

    Harlequin Well-Known Member

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    Nexxo - you are very right that parents and thus children do not question anything , let alone everything. £350 million a week ;). And yes I do believe my position may well be slightly different on Brexit.....
     
  2. Risky

    Risky Well-Known Member

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    So only those who are not parents and no-longer children have any considered opinion?
     
  3. Risky

    Risky Well-Known Member

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    Back to Catalonia and it appears that Rajoy is determined to end this the hard way by forcing them to completely back down or to impose direct rules which will sure involve sending in police or troops to turf out the regional government and potentially into conflict with the local police. Whatever political gains he makes in the sort term are surely outweighed by the negative impact in sentiment over time.
     
  4. Nexxo

    Nexxo Queue Jumper

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    No, they're just as dumb as the rest. :p
     
  5. Anfield

    Anfield Well-Known Member

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  6. Nexxo

    Nexxo Queue Jumper

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    Politics: taking stupidity to professional level.
     
  7. Harlequin

    Harlequin Well-Known Member

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    Except the Constitutional COurt in Spain has already change 14 articles regarding autonomy regarding Catalan from the 1978 Constitution in June 2010.
     
  8. wolfticket

    wolfticket Downwind from the bloodhounds

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    Bump? :blah:
    Difficult to foresee a good outcome at the moment.
     
  9. Anfield

    Anfield Well-Known Member

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    Indeed, it is like the spanish government is trying hard to piss off the people in Catalonia...
    Government dude #1: "The previous hammer of declaring the referendum illegal didn't work, what should we do?"
    Government dude #2: "Try the even bigger hammer of declaring direct rule and dissolving the local government"
    Government dude #1: "Brilliant!!!"
    Normal people: *Collective double facepalm*
     
  10. Nexxo

    Nexxo Queue Jumper

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    On the upside, it makes "Hey, let's have an advisory referendum on EU membership and then halfway through suddenly treat it like a binding one" look not quite as humongously stupid anymore. Quite.

    Then again, is it any more stupid than: "Hey, let's have a pointless independence referendum that didn't work out when we had it three years ago, because it is not really deliverable and is just going to stir a lot of political ****"?

    The UK has already said that it won't recognise Catalonian independence. It's almost like the UK never left the EU... :p

    Time to get a grip here. There was a referendum on Catalonian independence before in 2014 with a 42% turnout. Then again in 2017 (who says you can't have a second referendum?) with a 43% turnout. Now the Spanish government did its best to interfere in this one, but it's nonetheless not a massive democratic endorsement. So let's see if that civil war really happens, and if Catalans feel that a notional idea of "independence" really is worth dying for.
     
    Last edited: 27 Oct 2017
  11. Risky

    Risky Well-Known Member

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    I doubt many Catalans want to die for independence, but I suspect that doesn't mean that they think Madrid is right about this. Lets face it, if Cameron had taken the same path as Rajoy, then Scotland would be independent or close to it by now. The big difference is that unlike Catalonia spends less that it supplies in revenue so there are a lot fewer don't care's among the population in the rest of Spain than there were in England regarding Scotland..
     
  12. Nexxo

    Nexxo Queue Jumper

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    Many people don't agree with their government on a daily basis. That doesn't mean they feel strong enough about it to hit the barricades, nor that it appreciably affects their daily lives.

    I guess I just don't understand how independence would significantly change the average Catalan's life for the better.
     
  13. Archtronics

    Archtronics Well-Known Member

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    Is it not more down to the feeling of purpose and power these kind of independence votes give people.
    It’s that caveman part of the brain taking over again that defies all logic.
     
  14. Nexxo

    Nexxo Queue Jumper

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    Seems to me manipulative politicians appealing to such nationalist sentiment ("we're special") and greed ("we shouldn't have to share our wealth with others") in order to get more power for themselves. Better a big fish in a small pond than a small fish in a big one, and all that. That's what motivated Brexit.
     
    specofdust and Corky42 like this.
  15. Risky

    Risky Well-Known Member

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    That's a rather narrow view. I'm not convinced that the independence movement there is just vanity and greed. You cannot seriously look at this without the historical context , particularly during the time of Franco. And then we have to wind back a bit and wonder if the whole idea of self-determination, was somehow settled at some arbitrary point in the 60s and independence movements before were moral and justified and after are not. Are the particular national divisions settled after 1918 or 1945 or later decolonisations somehow more justified that any other arrangement.

    Ultimately I am thinking that one nation states in liberal, open society, shouldn't fee justified to used physical, legal, diplomatic or economic coercion to ensure that they can retain the maximum territory and subjects. I see it as a knee-jerk nationalist reaction that harks back to time best considered past.

    Or is that too woolly liberal for you ;)
     
  16. specofdust

    specofdust Banned

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    They don't, and you, me, and the Spanish government know that, so nothing will happen here. The Spanish government, despite being a bit silly in terms of how they acted during the referendum crack down, have played this relatively well and anyone who was on the fence is now on the side of the law. The Catalonian independence movement will fail here, probably with a bit of a hubbub, but it will fail, and then it will be dead for decades. Not that I like it, but the SNP played things far better in Scotland, where they've got a movement that just won't die.
     
    Last edited: 29 Oct 2017
  17. Corky42

    Corky42 Where's walle?

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    The problem is where do you draw the line, at what point do you stop looking back into history, should it be 1960, 1945, 1918, or maybe even 1648 when Spain signed the peace of westphalia treaties, how about roman times.
     
  18. Nexxo

    Nexxo Queue Jumper

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    I am looking at it pragmatically: how would Catalans be better off in an independent Catalonia? This seems to be mainly about some woolly idea about national identity and self-determination, but what does that mean in concrete, real-life terms?
     
  19. theshadow2001

    theshadow2001 [DELETE] means [DELETE]

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    Self determination is not a woolly idea. An independent Scotland would not have been pulled out of the EU by other countries for example. I'm certainly glad Ireland is not in the UK the way things are going over there. If Catalonia can make itself richer by leaving Spain that is a very real impact on the region.
     
  20. Anfield

    Anfield Well-Known Member

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    How does a region get richer by adding its own pile of bureaucracy, regulations and laws?
    Because compliance with each and every one of them costs companies a lot of money.
    And lets face it, companies in Catalonia will still want to do business with the rest of Spain as the shareholders would never accept artificially limiting the customer base (and with it profits), so any notion that they would only have to comply with one or the other set of regulations and law rather than both is pure fantasy.
     
    Last edited: 29 Oct 2017

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