Discussion in 'Serious' started by Mach, 10 Nov 2010.
Sorry but i absolutely love that saying... its so true... made me smile
That's probably because he does not think he has done anything wrong. Common decency would have dictated that he gave you rather a bit more explicit credit than he did, but unless you explicitly stated in your project log: "This is my design which I intend to produce commercially; copying or reproduction of this work is not allowed" he may not have seen a problem with it.
And jeez, dude, you planned to release your design commercially and you published the CAD drawings?!? Do you also keep a torch and a content inventory in your hallway for burglars?
No apologies necessary for feeling angry. Just be philosophical about it: another life lesson, and an important one if you want to make a living in industrial design.
to be honest no matter how funny your sarcasm is you dont copy people 100%.. and proffit from it.
The cad drawing was for the contest stating the intent of the design alone to allow for it to be entered.
It was a work in progress and not exactly blueprints hence the problems he had!
The sad fact of the matter is your one of the few people that seem to be supporting this guy in his deception? i may be reading this wrong but it does feel a little like your condoning what he did because i left myself open to this and its actually my fault? kinda like saying rape is ok as long as she looked like she was up for it?
i dont want to end up arguing with other people as its not you guys, but in the end i never expressed any permission for this to be used in any form, its just not the done thing in the world i work in to use someone elses work.
I have put up plenty of drawings in the past, and in the longrun a photo with a scale reference-able item in it can be imported into cad so nothing is really safe.. but this is the first full scale replication of my work so far in the last 13 years..
but as you say i will be more secrative in the future, but its sad really.. the reason i turned to computer modding from custom cars and bikes is becuase of the high level of tech and ideas.. its challenging as there are some phenomenal designs out there being built..
cars just dont interest me any more, where as computers evolve and so in turn the designs must also.. so i have to keep pushing.
after seeing some more of his work im saddened that he chose to copy my work for his own gain
I'd like to understand how things are supposed to work. Can someone enlighten me on how its different in the EU or UK? Based on US (yep I know it doesn't apply in outside the US; not arrogant just ignorant of how it works elsewhere), I believe the rules work this way.
Copyright is granted when a new work of art is created. To short circuit the modding as art debate, let's assume that mods are art. A mod can be considered to have copyright when it is created (I'm guessing that includes the design as well as the finished mod but not sure).
Copyright is just that, it cannot be copied without explicit permission of the copyright holder.
Public domain is a legal term that describes a body of works whose copyright has expired. Posting something to the internet does not mean that it considered public domain. The copyright is still in tact if its an original work. So, if a newly created work of art is on public display, it does not mean that it can be freely copied simply because its out in public. Public domain != accessible by the public.
Fair use is concept that has garnered much attention in recent years on the back of the RIAA efforts to squelch piracy. Fair use is a legal term used to describe copying that can be done without permission of the copyright holder. In a nutshell, you can copy a small detail of a larger work but not the entire work. It is not cut and dry though and often surprises people what is not permissible. There are other situations where copying is permissible. Wikipedia breaks down fair use here.
The fact of the matter is that he stole Chris's design, used it, got profit out of it. End of story. And this, ofcourse, is hugely shitty thing to do for someone, and it really disgusts me this happened in modding community.
I for one DON'T CARE AT ALL about the legal stuff. I just do NOT care if it's legal or not to steal someone's carefully planned concepts or not, it's just wrong and low. Also annoys me to see how many people take this. Probably I'm just being naive in thinking modders would appreciate each others work. Makes me sad.
No, I disapprove of his copying your design and not giving you explicit credit for it. I disapprove even more of him entering a competition and still not crediting you for the original design. That does not mean however that you were not naive.
I've had this conversation before about 'responsibility'. It turned out to be a bit of a paradigm shifter and some people did not have the conceptual clutch; hence there was a lot of grinding of mental gears and heated tempers. But here goes.
Responsibility (or blame) does not follow the laws of thermodynamics. You do not have a finite amount of responsibility/blame that never changes and somehow divides between the parties involved. If one has 100% responsibility or blame that does not imply that the other has none. If one party has no responsibility or blame that does not imply the other has to have all of it. It is not a cake that you carve up in slices, with each party having smaller or larger shares, all portions neatly adding up to 100%.
Hence a rapist is 100% responsible and to blame for his behaviour. However the victim who wore a sexualised dress, got herself incapacitated with alcohol and decided to flirt with equally pissed strangers before staggering home alone in the dark kinda had some responsibility for keeping herself safe as well. Because we all should know that there are monsters out there. Perhaps the parent who sexually abused, or more likely, sexually repressed the rapist as a child has some responsibility as well. Most sexual offenders know less about sex than their peers. That does not absolve them --they still have 100% responsibility. It is just that others have some too.
Same with burglary. It is wrong, and the thief deserves 100% of the blame. After all nobody forced him to break into your house (and even if they did, they would get some blame but that would not be subtracted from the burglar's). But you, being a sensible citizen, should also lock your doors and windows when you go out. If you don't, you also get part of the blame. That does not take away from the 100% of the burglar --as I said, there is no conservation of responsibility-- and the court will still deem him 100% guilty, but just because he gets 100% of the blame does not imply that you deserve none. Home insurance companies certainly see it that way.
Wow Nexxo you really drop a logic bomb on everything & put the best argument up ever with everything it seems 100% pure unfiltered logic.
Anyway I think everyone who repped thechoozen should rep Chris for being such an awesome designer that thechoozen pinched his idea.
But in my simple own opinion I honestly agree with Jipa 100%, I won't go into further details as I'd possibly get banned or make an idiot of myself with a rant so I'm dropping out of this & getting back to checking out the tinted acrylic that came today for my next mod woo hoo .
It's hard for me to actually gauge this having only read his initial post after it had been modified, and not knowing what was in the original version of the post. That said...
Having read that modified post, I saw no claims as to it being his own design, and see it as an evolution of someone else's design, which is what modding is all about. These days, there is more evolution and less innovation - that's the nature of time passing though. In this specific instance one could argue (right or wrong) that the mechanical workings of the case are an evolution of The Millenium Bug case from 10 years ago, and the flip down motherboard tray is an evolution of the Acer tower cases from the mid 90's (one of my favorite OEM cases ever).
As for copyrighting the case - There are only two categories of copywritable items I could see a computer case falling into : sculpture or architecture with architecture being pretty much eliminated since there's a requirement for it being human habitible. Going solely on covering it under sculpture then, it is definitely possible to have two works where the subject of the sculpture is the same, but the mediums and the details are vastly different, much like cardboard and plexi-glass are. I see nothing in the list of copywriteable items that covers a design like this.
As an aside - I find it highly ironic that the original thread about a design that has been copied was posted on a site styled after The Blues Brothers and whose logo essentially looks like Dan and John with a goatee who are on a "mission from god - errrr... to mod"....
i find no need to take a dig at the mod brothers site it is Bill owen of MNPCTech has been nothing short of an inspiration to getting me into this scene and im very greatful for that site.
Logic .. i love logic.. no need to say more than that and the argument is very valid... but has very little variables that life ultimately throws your way via the chaos theory..
copyright is given over a design, not classified as a structure or defined in that sense.
the work that was copied was a drawing that did not specify material, and as regards to likeness in copyright its too close for it not to be copied.
I am awaiting legal advise currently and will see how difficult or easy it is starting an international dispute over its likeness and the proffits gained from it.
this is not just a mod, it was a complete structure, its inferior build quality could by accident at a later date be atributed to my design and the name i am building around them. this could cost me maybe not now but in several years.
i understand that there is a lot of love for him on here, i am in no way asking for your respect nor for you to be disloyal or anything else.
but i was always taught to stick up for myself, and what i believe to be right.
i have spent many years sacrificing things so i can afford myself the opertunity to start my own design company and fortunate enough to buy my own laser cutter.
to have someone shortcut those years and jump on the bandwagon and use my ideas to propell them selves without my expressed permission... which strangely should he have asked to use them i would have worked with him to come to an agreement on the use of potentialy some of the ideas as long as he redeveloped them to his own product.
i cannot say fairer than that.
in the uk a copyright is granted as exclusive without any form of registration or submission for 10-15 years on the immediate completion of any unique work, be that written, drawn or made.
that was his modded post..
his original post said that he gained some inspiration from a build on the cardboard case competition. no mention or link to who what when or why.
he also said it was based around a metal case (motherboard tray only!)
and used my exact drawings without change apart from one minor adaption to the HDD bay side brackets... but not as to how or why it was mounted to the chassis.
As stated before.. evolution is one thing... but this is as evolutionary as adding stickers to your car.. same chassis.. slightly/minor different look
Sorry but how does the background psychology of an individual have any bearing on this?
I don't understand why sociological influences are being tossed about with who is 100% to blame. It is irrelevant and a debate that would belong in a general chat section not in a discussion about copyright theft.
The fact is theft is theft. The design hasn't even changed apart from the material used.
This person has taken a design they found, ripped it off, past it off as their own, and gained financially as well as their reputation being boosted.
They are frauds and as such i would advise that all sponsors involved are informed and that legal action is looked into. Chris, my advice to you would be to stop posting about this and seek legal action to all involved. I have contacted a lawyer i know for advice on this situation.
Oh and just to put some people straight on a few things. Just because a design is placed in the public domain does NOT make it open source for peopel to use how they see fit.
In fact the opposite is true. A design, artowrk, concept etc is only available for free use if permission is granted. In this case, permission was not granted.
Here is a link to help some people grasp copyright law in the UK
International copyright law still applies. Also, the people involved in helping to distribute copyrighted material can also be at fault. A case in point being pirate bay as just a very broad example ( i know it's not particularly relevant to this media form )
Let's not make this personal. RaptorLord has a valid point about borrowing ideas (memes?) for the Modfathers' site design. This does not take a dig at the site or its creator in any way. Nobody "loves" thechosen here to the extent that they will not see his transgression for what it is.
Tbh, this is pretty clear cut in my eyes. Thechoosen has copied Chris' design with complete disregard. He has infringed Chris' copyright. Normally copyright laws bug the hell out of me (playing a pirated game is illegal because when you run the disc it is 'copied' onto the system's RAM - big slice of common sense failcake) but copyright is there for a reason. As Chris has explained, he may very well suffer because of Thechoosen's work, be it the design flaws carried over when copied or merely the fact that someone saw Thechoosen's before Chris' and thinks that Chris was the one doing the copying.
As for responsibility, I don't disagree with Nexxo on some responsibility laying with Chris, but as he's said that doesn't detract from Thechoosen's 100% responsibility. Personally, I'd rather take the risk that Chris took, rather than hide away until my idea was ready to show the world and at a point where I could legally and solidly show claim to it. When there's already a system in place that should let me do this to begin with I see no reason to go out of my way just because some people will be deceitful. To give an example, when I walk into the city I walk through a rough-ish area. I could walk around it and it wouldn't take much longer, but I prefer to take the shorter route. If something were to happen, I would understand that I could've avoided it, but I don't see why I should be forced to do something I don't really want to do because of fear someone else.
Chris is in a hard situation now. He is building a business and trying to make a name for his company. Part of doing that is publishing work on the internet for others to see. If he were to hide away and not publish anything on it until he was producing it or had patents then he likely wouldn't be as successful and probably wouldn't have the orders for the case that he's mentioned (I think).
Ultimately Thechoosen has done something morally and legally wrong, of which he has benefitted and potentially harmed Chris and his company. Unfortunately I get the impression that Thechoosen is getting away with it at the moment, but if there is any justice in the world his turn will come.
Guys, for my upcoming products I already have copyright AND copyleft-copy it if you want to, but you can't sell it or I'll bury you in court. The best stuff is patent pending. I know to protect myself cause people are dumb.
I think I understand your point. Personal responsibility requires that each individual assess the reasonable risks associated with their decisions. By ignoring those risks, the individual implicitly assumes blame if a negative outcome arises. The operative word here is reasonable if I understand correctly. Or are you arguing that personal responsibility also applies in unreasonable circumstances?
If I lock my doors and windows, set my alarm, and put the guard dog out, but a thief still burgles my house, do I still deserve a measure, not share, of blame?
I understand how a patent could apply to a new or novel thermal compound but would it apply to a case mod? A pivoting motherboard tray as in this design or a new hinged case design yes, but a case mod would fall under a copyright as a creative work of art, no? I was under the impression that patent pending simply means you've filed for a patent not that you have a patent. Using the patent pending designation without an accepted application is illegal.
For case mods, copyleft is free and safe.
I have a few patents in other, non-pc related areas. I know how to keep myself safe.
I was the first one to start pinching my nipples just for fun- now everybody does it
think the guy who stole your design is the atypical insert racist term here.. your talented chris and sorry to see this happen to you.. but that's what's out there- you can sue him but knowing that ahole he will just apologize according to your post to get out of the legal mess
My guess if you cant take legal action to remove the post and make him return his gains beacuse it is your design. Then you dont have any grounds to stand on. One it was posted with no patents or copyrights it is free to copy.
On the internet and in real life, people will take others idea. It happen everyday (cough , cough) Microsoft. I disagree that he took your almost exact design , but he can do that , it is not yours unless legally you prove it is. He could also take it and get the same contracts from other case manufacturies And sell it.
Hard lesson learned.
Dont show sombody your idea till you have all your bases covered.
With respect jj_sky, that's just a load of crap! Follow some of the links here and elsewhere
to find out how the law operates in this area.
Simply not true.
Separate names with a comma.