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Gaming Critical Hit: The Trouble With Lightsabers

Discussion in 'Article Discussion' started by arcticstoat, 22 May 2011.

  1. metarinka

    metarinka New Member

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    I haven't played the game but you could also make the lightsaber a cool down ability, say once every 2-3 minutes you could insta pwn something, or use it to defend 95% of incoming blaster shots for 10-30 seconds? The timing would have to be balanced, but that would be in line with games like WoW where powerful abilities aren't available all the time.

    Alternative you could do what kotor did and have vibroblades and what not for along time before you get a light saber near end game.
     
  2. hyperion

    hyperion Active Member

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    If you want to have a proper lightsaber fight it needs to be 10 minutes of blocking and then 1-shot kill. Sith should have a skill to disable Jedi by taking hostages, while Jedi are allowed to abuse terrain exploits ;)
     
  3. Fizzban

    Fizzban Man of Many Typos

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    This X a million. I think people need to realise it is a game, and that if Lightsabers did indeed one hit everything that it would be no fun at all.
     
  4. vdbswong

    vdbswong It's a Hedgehod

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    I understand that there are people who don't agree with what a developer is doing, however i think it's different to this situation where lots of people don't seem to understand what a developer is trying to do.

    To all those that are suggesting that Lightsabers be denied until mid-high level players, that's exactly what Bioware do not want. They want players from the start to feel like their Class from the start. Just like how Bounty Hunters expect Flamethrowers and Jetpacks, Jedi/Sith expect to be able to use Lightsabers.

    The whole "realistic" Star Wars sim was done before and the only people that really enjoyed that were a small group of people who now keep lamenting about how SOE ruined the game.
     
  5. Jezcentral

    Jezcentral Member

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    I'm not sure of the shonky early level lightsabre. It's still not fun when it explodes in your hand, or just stops working.

    My idea would be to use "blockpoints" that equal your hitpoints. If you hit someone with a lightsabre, instead of wounding them with it, they block your attack with their lightsabre. (Let's assume it's jedi v jedi).The computer can then remember how much damage you would have done with that if it had connected, and subtract it from your blockpoints. The attack that reduces the blockpoints to zero would be an attack that actually connects with your opponent, and you are rewarded with a one-shot kill that you would expect from a lightsabre fight.

    For non-jedi classes, you could have them jumping back outof the range of the lightsabre, or ducking under it.
     
  6. vdbswong

    vdbswong It's a Hedgehod

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    If you're just suggesting that HP be renamed "BP" for the purposes of Jedi/Sith it's really just pulling wool over your eyes really and would just make an unnecessary "complication" just for lore justification purposes - not to mention it would probably be criticised as being a rather lame "cop-out" by various people (damned if you do, damned if you don't).

    Also how would healing be justified? Since the notion of being able to "replenish" a person's ability to block sounds a little silly.

    And there's Force Abilities to consider... if a character sees them choke an enemy player, would those be subtracted from Hitpoints? Or Block points? Since they obviously haven't blocked the ability, yet having effectively 2 HP bars would be more imbalanced.
     
  7. Flibblebot

    Flibblebot Smile with me

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    I'm assuming what Jez was talking about was more like a shield (or perhaps more like Mana) rather than an HP replacement - and it does kind of make sense: after all, you only have so much energy and after a period of blocking so many attacks, you'd feel tired and not be able to block any more, or at least you'd be blocking slower. I'd also assume that "blockpoints" would only apply to melee attacks

    I agree about the "damned if you don't, damned if you do" statement - BioWare will never be able to satisfy everybody, and someone will always criticise them no matter what they do.

    The early stages of any MMO are always subject to change, and I don't see why SWTOR should be any different - just because something is done one way now, it doesn't necessarily mean that it'll be done that way come the next update.
     
  8. vdbswong

    vdbswong It's a Hedgehod

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    I assumed it was an HP substitute as opposed to a shield since he mentioned reinstating one hit kills.

    And if they only applied to Melee Attacks, it means that some Force/Melee hybrid classes (like the Sith Assassin/Jedi Shadow) would be at a heavy disadvantage since they would have two "Effective Health Bars" (HP and BP) to work through as opposed to non-Force Users who would only effect a Single Bar. (Blasters are assumed be mitigated by Lightsaber BPs as well).

    You're right about the Energy/Stamina point however, i didn't think through it clearly when i originally replied. However it would still be hard to explain in game like "XXXX Ability revitalises target restoring XXX HP or BP"... also would it heal HP, BP or both (if they were separate)? The latter, similar to damage would make it heavily imbalanced and if any of the former, you'd need to option to choose between BP or HP.

    Indeed, but as always, people need to understand this and move on... it's simply not their game, get over it lol.

    You're correct there, although i don't think Bioware have changed anything significant due to community pressure (the only thing i can think of is the removal/reducing of Mass Effect DRM but that's not SWTOR).

    I know they're changed some superficial things, the main one being the renaming of the Jedi Consular Caster Advanced Class from "Wizard" (lmao) to "Sage".
     
  9. DocWolfe

    DocWolfe New Member

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    Like someone else said - guns are pretty much 1 shot kill weapons as well and no one complains about them being implemented as they are now in MMOs.
     
  10. vdbswong

    vdbswong It's a Hedgehod

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    Players wear armor... makes perfect sense *coughcough* :p
     
  11. IronDoc

    IronDoc New Member

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    Yeah but giving everyone gimped lightsabres means no one feels like a Jedi. I see your point and I daresay it's the flawed logic the devs were using but it doesn't really work.

    Star Wars simply isn't a suitable universe for an mmo imo.
     
  12. vdbswong

    vdbswong It's a Hedgehod

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    Actually more lore-minded players would state whilst a Lightsaber is iconic for Jedi, it in no way defines who he is. There are many aspects to the Jedi, which include their philosophy and use of the Force.

    It's just the same how if you give a normal person a Lightsaber, it doesn't make them a Jedi, it simply makes them a very dangerous person (to both other people and themselves).

    Also, as has been pointed out before, every other MMO has things that are gimped, be it smacking people with Bullets/Arrows/Swords/Weapons to projecting Fire, Electricity, Cold, Arcane Bolts etc. Each of these things are normally enough to normally incapacitate (if not kill) a person, yet heroes in those games can still shrug off multiple instances.

    And from a Lore perspective, i do agree as Joe pointed out previously in a comment from the Preview, they could have easily justified it by saying that Armor from that period was made using a Cortosis Weave or something similar, which would make it lightsaber resistant. However ultimately if all it takes for you to "accept" the incongruity that Lightsabers can't cut through armor is the small statement that it's made with Cortosis, then you're a very very petty person. Hell, just tell yourself that it is and get over it :p

    Basically it all ends at whether or not you can suspend your disbelief... either you accept that this is the way the game is and player it, or you keep refuting it and not play it. Or as most people will end up doing, play it and keep complaining how it sucks.
     
  13. IronDoc

    IronDoc New Member

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    Something tells me this is by far the most likely outcome for basically every future Star Wars game.
     
  14. Pr477y

    Pr477y New Member

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    Surely the idea of a role playing game is to play the role... Jedi's have badass lightsabres, they kill all sorts of **** but need to be in melee range, make it hard to get in melee range, make all Jedi wannabees have to go through laborious training like the real ones, to learn the force and have to be able to use it before they can just run about chopping stuff's heads off... make it hard to level up a jedi make the lightsabre their only buff and it take ages to do anything else and what will you find, very few people play it, there are supposedly very few jedis in the star wars universe and loads of smugglers etc. only the most committed will be jedis and casuals (like myself) will have to accept that a back ally death stick dealer is all that we'll ever amount to...

    PS i only just ready John_T's post and think that he's on to a winner too make it more realistic (contextually) then balance will sort itself out
     
  15. vdbswong

    vdbswong It's a Hedgehod

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    I'm just going to leave this here with regards to my previous comment:

    This was with regards to a few social suggestions like player housing, but it's pretty much their attitude towards quite a few ideas people want to port from Star Wars: Galaxies.

    It's been done before, it flopped.

    People keep talking about things that "should be" from what their perspective of Star Wars... the lore is much deeper than just the movies and has been established through various games and novels etc.

    Actually that's just one definition... general roleplaying is divided into:

    - Playing the character you want to play/be.
    - Playing the character that you've created.

    Both sound similar, but are vastly different.

    Jedi's can also use the force to leap massive distances... how hard could it be for one of them to leap at you.

    As stated before, that all already happened with Star Wars: Galaxies? What happened? people were annoyed at how hard it was to become a Jedi and stopped playing/didn't play.

    Lack of players led to lack of money to upkeep the game. Game died.

    Actually the title says it all: "The Old Republic", it's set in a much older time frame from the movies.

    The Jedi Order had been rebuilt after the events of KoTOR 2 and there's the entire Sith Empire located in the Outer Galaxy that wasn't even touched upon in the games.

    There is nothing to suggest that Jedi or Sith were rare at all during that time period and it's the exact reason why Bioware chose this time frame.
     
  16. fatty beef

    fatty beef State Side

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    Guns, Swords, Grenades, Axes, and so forth are pretty much 1 hit kills/limb removers as well so lets not pretend that Star Wars is the only game that defies the laws of a character not ending up in pieces.
     
  17. minimad127

    minimad127 CPC Refugee

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    force stamina points sounds good as the extended universe does hint that if someone uses the force heavily they do get tired but recoups their ability to use the force after time - maybe the ability to use a stim pack/pain relief to allow player to use force beyond normal abilities/limits for a short term force points gain, but giving a hit to health would allow for a interesting combination

    as to one hit kills, i believe there is also reference to lightsabre resistant materials in the extended universe as well which could be a handy armour upgrade

    i also believe in one of the books there is mention of a scatter gun (or something like that) which sound awfully similer to a machine gun, which is very difficult for a lightsabre to block, being a mass projectile and not a energy projectile
     
  18. ZERO <ibis>

    ZERO <ibis> Member

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    Very cool. Now looking at some of the history of the device it is apparent how this could really enrich the game experience and offer new balancing options:

    So people start off with something simple like that which overheats/breaks/runs out of power.

    So we see that improvements in design allowed longer use time but bing connected via a cable prevents a lot of movement. Logically if the cable was cut or damaged in battle it will stop working.

    This suggests that while longer a modern design still can only last per charge so to speak a finite about of times that is related to how much the blade has cut.

    There is clearly a lot that could be done to balance the game out while also offering cool new game play mechanics. This article and these comments have really brought light to a genre that needs some work :dremel:
     
  19. vdbswong

    vdbswong It's a Hedgehod

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    Yes, from a lore perspective Lightsabers used to be very tempermental, but that's not the case in The Old Republic's era. They're fully established and fully functional.

    Also, people are pointing out that having a lightsaber which doesn't cut through stuff in one hit as "lame", however i think it's much more lame to have a lightsaber that doesn't even work properly.
     
  20. coffex

    coffex New Member

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    Ignoring other players and forsaking group content does not mean they aren't there. It also means missing out on part of the narrative. Its a multiplayer game that tells a story, where success or failure for large chunks of content is dependant on the abilities of individuals working in a group.

    So yes, class balance is _extremely_ important. You don't want people missing out just because they were unfortunate enough to pick an underpowered class 200+ hours of gameplay ago.
     
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