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cult and religion

Discussion in 'Serious' started by dead_man, 5 Apr 2005.

  1. TheAnimus

    TheAnimus Banned

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    I'm intrested as to were you would place intelegent design in that list (rather an institute that supports it)?

    myself thats a belive, as pretty much 99.9% of the excepted evedence can be used to demonstrate evolution in plants (but you can say thats god's design).

    i think all organised religions, are cults to a very large extent.

    (see pope: females + homosexuality, moromans: native americans, protetestant/reformists: letting them have the power they want).
     
  2. kickarse

    kickarse What's a Dremel?

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    holy thread revival batman!

    i think someone deleted their posts or edited them underneath mine... becuase there was some other things said afterward and it was just left...
     
  3. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    It's a belief (not a scientific theory, because it does not follow the scientific process --see below. However even scientific theory can become a belief by abandoning the scientific process --and this happens more often than you think. Some scientific theories even become cults...).

    That is not what makes it a belief in itself. I could argue that Intelligent Design is a scientific theory. However, a scientific theory is tested by the process that is science; that is, you test whether it can be proved wrong. If you cannot accurately explain (and predict!) your observations with alternative explanations (from observation error to competing theories), then you assume your theory must be the correct one --for the time being (i.e. until new information pops up and then you test again). It is not enough to say: "Well, it has to be this because frankly I can't see how it could be something else" which is what Intelligent Design proponents do. You have to demonstrate it can't be something else.

    In this case, as you say, there is at least one alternative theory to Intelligent Design: Evolution, and so far it does a pretty good job in explaining everything Intelligent Design tries to explain. However, more significantly, Evolution has a predictive value: you can use its process of natural selection and random mutation, re-iteration, emergence etc. etc. to predict and affect outcome. We have been doing so ever since for instance we bred livestock, and are now using it in computer simulations to for instance develop highly efficient electronic circuits far better than the best engineer could design. Intelligent Design has no predictive value-- we cannot tell what is likely to come next, and we cannot use it to affect outcome.

    This does not mean that I don't like the idea of Intelligent Design --personally I would want nothing more than to find unequivable proof that a benign, all-powerful God is out there looking out for us. I really, really do. But what I want to find has nothing to do with what is actually there. Dreams are wonderful, but reality is, well, reality. When I step onto a plane it will fly only if its construction and functioning are based on good, sound, real scientific principles, not the dreams, hopes or faith of the engineer or the pilot.

    I think many religions tend to evolve (sic) that way. They start as attempts to explore and find answers to the meaning of life and humanity, and gradually deteriorate into empty (but probably reassuring) ritual and dogma. From content to form.
     
    Last edited: 23 Apr 2005
  4. f U z ! o N

    f U z ! o N What's a Dremel?

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    well nexxo i suggest you read about the bible. heck even read the bible. read some books about God and such. www.christiananswers.net has a lot of information. you may say its biased but if you are willing to learn read that site. see the bible has stayed the same for over 2000 years. it was written by a bunch of different people throughout different times. all the books in the bible do not hypocroize (sp?) each other. its amazing how the book came together over many years as it was not written alltogether at once. all the books are personal testimonies about what God has done. not to mention all the bible prophecies that have come true. heck, Jesus fulfilled like 300 of them by himself. there is arcaheological evidence to support the bible as well.
    there is a lot of evidence to support intelligent design as well. look at the world around us, the universe. it didn't come about by chance. its far too complex with everything working together as a whole. things just didn't happen by chance. not to mention miracle healings. some people get cured out of nowhere sometimes. a girl gave a testimony at my church about how she was having thyroid problems and her thyroid was getting out of control. it was producing like 10x the amount of what it produces. she had been on many medications but none of them worked. finally, she got right with God and 2 weeks later it went back to normal and has stayed there. she has had medical problems all her life. next, she had a cyst that was to be surgically removed. well, she prayed to God and when she woke up the day before surgery God told her to look for it. it was gone. her doctor could barely believe it. he said he had never seen anything like that happen before. keep in mind this cyst would swell up to golf ball size too. there is so much amazing things that happen around us. nexxo, if you open your eyes to the earth around us and the universe while doing some research on the bible and God im sure you will find him. also, christianity is not a cult. its the most unique religion out there because its God trying to get to man instead of man trying to get to God. christianity doesn't require you to do good deeds to get to heaven as well.
     
  5. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    Whoa. Well-intentioned as you are, f U z ! o n, and as much as I respect your viewpoint, it will never be mine. Since you started, allow me to finish my paragraph that you quoted:

    Faith is faith, fact is fact, and never the twain shall, or should, meet.

    When I have an existentialist crisis, when I ask myself what is the human thing to do, when I want to give life meaning, I will turn to philosophy or faith. When I want to build a plane, or cure illness, I turn to science. They are very different problems requiring very different approaches and solutions.

    That doesn't mean they don't complement each other: science tells us how to cure the sick, philosophy/faith tells us why. That's how it should be. Science without philosophy/faith creates A-bombs; Philosophy/faith without science creates witchhunts and exorcism. It is not for nothing that more enlightened philosophies and religions held science and art in high regard.

    Basic example: your child falls violently ill. It has a raging fever and crippling pain in the abdomen. It vomits, cries and it is scared. So are you. Do you immediately take it to church, or to hospital? Well, then. This doesn't mean that you don't pray all the way that your kid is going to be OK --anyone would. But with a physical problem, you apply science, not just faith. And that's how it should be.
     
    Last edited: 23 Apr 2005
  6. Lord_A

    Lord_A Boom baby!

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    I'd call for an exorcism with those symptoms, tbh...

    /sarcasm
    not wanting too or trying to flame, just could not resist.
    :D ;)
     
  7. Astrum

    Astrum Dare to dream.

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    You can't offer the bible as proof. As you yourself said it came together over time from many different people. Every person has a bias towards his beliefs and hence the bible is inherently biased. It may very well have relatively factual accounts in it, but because it was written by human beings after the fact it can't be considered proof of anything.
     
  8. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    :hehe: Actually, that was quite funny...

    Of course, the kid would die within a day from acute appendicitis. But it would go to heaven, of course. :)
     
  9. f U z ! o N

    f U z ! o N What's a Dremel?

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    i understand that nexxo. im not pushing beliefs im saying you wanted to find God and im telling you how. yes, i would take my child(if i had one :D ) to the hospital but i would also pray for it. im saying yes science and faith are opposites but with science we can prove God as well.
     
  10. TheAnimus

    TheAnimus Banned

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    not if it wasn't baptised!
    erm no, uc nexxo's and my definitions of whats a cult, and whats a religion are given jusitified arguments, you just say "its not a cult"

    which is pretty much the first thing all members of any cult are told to belive.

    inteligent design, we've had a thread go along that before lets not go back there.

    but the thing is, i find respect for almost all major religions, hell even one which has people spin it so badly as the muslim faith has of late (thou their views on woman :nono:) but i see things which make them a cult.

    Take CoE (which i am ment to be), some might say it was founded to henry the 8th could get his willy wet. I use the exact phrase because somoene i know wrote that on their RE paper. Or you might say it was created because people were fed up with the state the roman catholic faith was in (see dead see scrolls, well pretty much any thing thats old and describes god, mary magdolin etc.) when the RC faith is fairly new in the grand scheme of things.

    Now some Jews i know won't eat pork, even thou they know they do agree with me that its not really an issue with the british climate. (in the desert pigs are very un-healthy dirty creatures, not eating them is a good way to stay alive).

    Then you have the mormons, hehe, yes, well i'm sure its good to know how old man kind is, despite dinosaws, carbon dating and other such things. Then we have the story of how the second edition was created, which was somehow differnt to the first which was "lost". But it preaches some honerable things, the importance of family for instance, and lets you have more than one wife, which can always come in handy.

    what i'm saying is classifying something as a religion and cult, i really don't understand, enless the distinction is poeple question religion but they don't a cult.
     
  11. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    :hehe: That is the most accurate description of the CoE's inception that I have ever read. :thumb:

    No, I'm saying they are complementary. They are not opposites, because that would suggest that somehow they fall on the same continuum or are comparable on the same criteria. They are not. It's like sunlight and water; very different things, but we need both. :)

    In any case, God is not about proof. He's about faith. Proof is irrelevant; either you believe in what He stands for, or you don't.
     
  12. jc.com

    jc.com What's a Dremel?

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    So why do most churches that I'm aware of labour the good deeds aspect so much.

    Unfortunately, turning the other cheek isn't much of an option in the middle of a world war. I suspect many committed christians have worked on "defence" projects over the years, before, during and after the Manhattan Project. I suspect they have no trouble squaring their day job with their faith.


    We seem to have arrived at the usual place, where the faithful are trying to convert the nonbelievers (and I'm losing the will to live...). Of course, until the scientists demonstrate that there isn't a god (and maybe even after that) things aint gonna change. :sigh:
     
  13. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    I think you do not understand the point I was making. I was saying that science is amoral; it does not make ethical judgements. This can lead to some bad mojo. Conversely religion is a matter of belief and this always runs the risk of becoming irrational. Hence both are needed to keep each other in balance. Head and heart, and all that.

    As for committed Christians working on defence projects, I don't care how they rationalise it, but they are getting it wrong. There is nothing Christian about building (or dropping) A-bombs.

    Turning the other cheek, by the way, refers to acknowledging that sometimes people do stupid things in anger, or make mistakes, and that we all ought to cut each other some slack. Hence the big deal about Christian forgiveness. Nowhere does it imply that you have to keep turning the other cheek when you are slapped repeatedly, or if barbarians are pillaging your village and raping your women. Although the Amish would argue that it does, and as such they will not reciprocate even when attacked. It is not my way, but I have to admit to having some respect for their stainless steel balls to stick to what they believe in, even if it works out badly for them.

    Be careful before you wear that cross --it is far heavier than it looks...

    I don't think that is true (apart from a brief reflex reaction from f U z ! o N, but generally even he is happy to agree to disagree). My stance on that all along however, is that believers shouldn't need proof that God exists. It is not about "knowing for sure", it is about having faith.
     
  14. jc.com

    jc.com What's a Dremel?

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    You're right, Nexxo, I didn't understand your point - the way it was worded implied to me that bad scientists make bombs, and good (ie ones with faith/philosophy) scientists make nice things like medicines. It doesn't happen that way. Weapons are developed by people with just as wide a range of beliefs and values as the "good" stuff.

    It's relatively easy for us to sit here and debate this, and say things like christians can't be bomb-makers, but I suspect that's because a lot of christians did just that between 1938 and 1945.


    I don't understand your other point either. You say turning the other cheek is not a position that has to be maintained ad infinitum. Christians would disagree: Christ didn't get p**d off with being crucified and summon up a thunderbolt to see off the romans who were doing it to him, although it would seem a justifiable reaction to me. It's been a while since I went to church, but I don't ever recall being told that you turn the other cheek until you've reached some sort of arbitrary breaking point.
     
  15. kickarse

    kickarse What's a Dremel?

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    Jesus didn't fight back on numerous occasions. Not only to uphold God's stand on not being violent. But he wanted nothing to inhibit him from doing what he had to do, bring reproach upon his father or in any way change what needed to happen. Besides that he had perfect love and could see into hearts.

    He understood what he had to do. So he did it perfectly.

    We are imperfect humans who do things becuase well we're imperfect and thus fail to do what we should be doing. If someone shoots me in the leg I am not going to take revenge on him and shoot him back. If someone hit's me I won't hit him back, I'll leave. The thing is it's all good in our minds and words out of our mouths before that happens. But being imperfect we fail to do so and thus are vengeful via our nature. Sometimes you can't help yourself and retaliate. It happens just like being mean or showing your anger to someone and hurting them. This also show's where you loyalty lays. On self or to God...

    Faith is the assured expectation of things to come, the evident demonstrations of things not yet seen. This means that we have faith things are going to happen becuase of what has happened and is happening now. That's all faith is. Now simply the bible says that it is impossible to please him, god, well without faith. NOT impossible to please, just not well. The amount of faith we have moves us to action. The bible states that faith the size of a mustard grain could move a mountain of obstacles, of course symbolism. It's a powerful part of worship of our God in heaven but not the whole pie. That's the problem with people today. They rely to much on just faith then the actual following and doing what God says we must in order to come in an approved condition or state with him.

    Belief is not something that is religion specific we must remember. It's just a justified though of the end result of relevent proof to a person.

    I hate the word religion becuase the definition has become fraught with negatives. It's not what it should be which is a way of life. The bible determines a guideline for our lives to be happy and fulfilling. Religions itself add's it's own crap to the mix with man's traditions and doctrines that they self inflict and then don't follow.

    Historical and scientific evidence prove the authenticity of the bible. You could leave out the prophetic evidence if you want to, that is fine. But just this proves the authenticity of the bible canon. It spans 3,500 years of human history. One of the most complete and accurate depictions of human history. The oldest holy book. Many other "holy" books were based off it on the humans own interpretation of. Just the age of the book and the fact that it's stilll around should give us some clue of it's true origin.

    The bible does though prove the only true religion and gives different signs as to how to identify them. It's not hard you just have to humbly accept it. That's the problem we as humans are generally arrogant, stubborn beings and feel we know best no matter what the evidence; historical, scientific, prophetic, or otherwise.

    Sorry if my post is irrelevent to the rest of the posts. I read through some of it. I thought this thread was dead before but I guess it's alive and kicking. I just hope some kid doesnt come in and start flinging accusations and name calling like before and starts becoming flippant.

    Nexxo I appreciated what you said before about me not being like others. I must say though there are at least 6,000,000+ that feel the same way as I do :D

    don't everyone post at the same time...
     
    Last edited: 25 Apr 2005
  16. TheAnimus

    TheAnimus Banned

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    not taking sides, but just wanting to remind people of that poster in the simpsons (the one were adverts start to attack) that has a picture of people smoking, with the caption "50 million americans can't be wrong" or somthing similar.
     
  17. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    You are quite right. Although a philosophy or faith can provide guidelines in moral dillemmas, there is no guarantee that they will, or that people will use them. People will always do stupid things driven by anger, fear or hate. The point is that science, being amoral, does not consider what is "good" or "bad" at all.

    I said it was not implied, but also that the Amish for instance would disagree with me. Christ, of course, could not summon thunderbolts so it's a moot point to discuss that possibility. However he could have fled before the Romans arrested him, so I sort of suspect he was making a point here. Some messages are so important they may be worth dying for, just to get them across.

    You know I respect your opinions, even if I rarely agree with them. :D However for every intelligent guy like you, who just tries to find the right way to live and the best way to do by others, there is some rather worrying guy arguing on a Christian forum that slavery is OK "because it was endorsed by the Bible" (no, seriously. I recently came across that by accident. And get this: there were people agreeing with him.). There are rather a lot of those, too...
     
    Last edited: 25 Apr 2005
  18. TheAnimus

    TheAnimus Banned

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    mormons are the best thouse who belive it, god damn native americans, god smoted them!

    oh and dinosaws were only 6,000 years ago.
     
  19. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    Any belief system allows for self-serving attribution biases. :D
     
  20. TheAnimus

    TheAnimus Banned

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    *Yoink* (the sound of me stealing that phrase)
     

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