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cult and religion

Discussion in 'Serious' started by dead_man, 5 Apr 2005.

  1. jc.com

    jc.com What's a Dremel?

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    I'll allow that the scientific method doesn't have a moral dimension, but to suggest that defending one's way of life, when it is under attack, is stupid, or that those who did so somehow abandoned their faith is where we'll have to agree to disagree.


    My point is that there is no equivocation on this in the christian teachings. There would never, implied or otherwise, be a point at which it would become acceptable to stop turning the other cheek.

    If we accept that he could feed the five thousand with a few loaves and fish, if he could turn water into wine, drive demons out of the possessed, walk on water and raise the dead, then a thunderbolt would be a relatively simple party trick. Why could he not summon one?
    I suspect he was following his destiny and dying to save us all, assuming we accept all the other stuff, including his existence in the first place.
     
  2. f U z ! o N

    f U z ! o N What's a Dremel?

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    it was his destiny to die on the cross. he couldn't avoid it. it was what God wanted.
     
  3. kickarse

    kickarse What's a Dremel?

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    Let's just say he died, cross out the cross, pun intended. The original scriptures and history conclude that criminals and Jesus died on a stake with their hands nailed above their heads with their feet nailed below them. I don't feel like bringing out this again and again and again.

    The bible doesn't condone human slavery at all! Not in the instance that these self righteous zealots believe. As worshippers of God we are suppose to live not for ourselves but for God. Hence Jesus took a slave's form, a human, when he came to earth. We are made by god and therefore should be doing what he asks of us to do, as humans considered slaves to god. To be a slave to god is not demeaning. We can also be slaves to money(riches), our jobs, fame, humans, etc. But to be a slave to each other is not something God tells of us to do or agree's with. For in fact he says that all men that do are righteous by him are acceptable to him, all humans are equal and deserve the same share in the hope of everlasting life. Again we see that traditions of man has blinded the true meanings of the bible.

    Jesus died so that all Righteous mankind could be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of him. Would this not neccessitate one true religion for there to be accruate knowledge? Throughout history God has always had a chosen people. What makes this change? The bible in fact gives conclusive evidence of those today who are his chosen people.

    I think many people today feel there's many ways of looking at things in the bible. They say "oh thats how you see it." A stop sign says stop. So will you conclude to proceed becuase you see it or perceive it differently? When you look at an arrow it's pointing one way. When you look at it from behind it's still pointing the same way. When you look at it from any angle it's still pointing the same way. So to say "oh that's how you see it" is a moot point.

    Nexxo I understand completely about people whom are beyond moral sense and logical reasoning. I suppose morality, though, by the world standards (not the bibles) is ever changing. I appreciate and respect your points as well.
     
  4. TheAnimus

    TheAnimus Banned

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    Its all about interpreteation, some say that god would consider catholesism the way we have it now as a travisty. You get people so blinded by what they've been told, they don't question the world around them enough, they belive in intelegent design based on the most child like brainwashed ideas (why aren't i growing another arm now). Its nothing more than interpretation.

    So, its personal intrepration, and you can't some get people to understand were the other logic comes from. A non-religous example is one of my housemates, who's GF was trying to have a go at me (she's got nothing better to do with her life) now she was trying to be all condisending on the utililty bill claiming that my computers were responsible (i tried to explain they don't run on gas!) but i mentioned i'm the only one in the house who uses engy saving lightbulbs, i'm also the only one who's never had to replace a blown one in their room (our ring main is a shoddy job). Now her logic is, they can't afford these bulbs, i can because i'm rich. :wallbash:

    The point is, thats her belive she will refuse to change her mind, whilst i would say she has a chip on her shoulder about something (seeing as my LEA decreed i'm poorer than them). But its belief, i realised then that there was no point trying to explain this to her any further, and that she just wouldn't acknowledge anything she didn't want to hear.

    Its very similar to how some people see religion that, i still don't have a nice firm understanding of were the line between cult and religion is, but due to the more negative connitations of the world cult, it brings out the above behaviour in people.
    (and makes people like me rant about it on the net).
     
  5. kickarse

    kickarse What's a Dremel?

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    Of course it's how people see it. That doesn't mean that because a person see's a stop sign and interpretes it as proceed means their correct. A simple analogy, but it makes sense. We are always going to have people too stubborn to learn or change no matter what proof is displayed.

    If you shoot someone in the head because you personally interprete that as a good thing are you right in your action? No! How absurd is that? Just to conclude "i'm right becuase that's what I believe and that's how I view it" is as absurd. Not only is that persons eternal future at stake but the others that listen to his squabble. A spiritual death setence with an ultimate physical one becuase the person thinks "its all personal interpretation." Why don't we make sure of what we are doing to the fullest. And instead of "personal interpretation", which is really a cop out of responsibility, really beyond doubt make sure of what you take as truth.
     
  6. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    It is the way they did it, and the lengths they went to that is at question. Sure, Hitler was a bad-ass. Sure, the Japanese government was going psycho. But did that justify dropping a pair of nukes on non-military targets (i.e. cities full of civilians)? And don't go all "yeah, but they would have done it to us". We, supposedly, were the good guys. We, supposedly were not like them. We therefore do not have the same courses of action open to us.

    Again, that cross is heavier than it looks.

    As for the cold war, both sides were stupid, and at what cost? What did it get either side in the end? All we have learned (reluctantly) is that it is probably better to try and get along a bit.

    I'm happy to accept that's your interpretation. I'm not saying mine is correct. However, as a point of curiosity, if you are arguing that those who defended their way of life (by e.g. developing the A-bomb) were not abandoning their faith, how do you square that with this one?

    Well, I don't accept that actually. But to my mind whether he did all these miracles or not is irrelevant. It does not diminish what he was saying, and the example he tried to set. All those miracles, to my mind, are just garnish.

    But anyway, if he did summon a thunderbolt, no doubt people would have backed off (reducing a human to a pile of ashes is a very graphic way of making your point), but would they have respected him, or feared him? Would they have listened to him and said: "Yeah, that makes sense, those are good principles, I ought to live according to them" or would they have said: "Better do as he says before he smites me too!"? Sort of would have dilluted the message, right?

    Personally I don't think it was his destiny (although admittedly he was pushing the envelope). I think it was a calculated risk --it could have worked out OK (but knowing people, not very likely). However it didn't and he was killed. Some messages are so important however, that death may seem an acceptable price to pay to get the message across --and it certainly seems to have done that. To the extent that the means of his death is now the symbol for the whole religion.
     
    Last edited: 26 Apr 2005
  7. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    Don't. I know, and you know, so it's cool. :)

    I know and you know. I was just saying that there are a lot of "faithful" who don't subscribe to that enlightened point of view (don't worry, we also have some real morons amongst the atheist/agnostic population).

    When you look at an arrow from the front it may point right. When you look at it from behind it points left. Same metaphor, different point. :D
     
  8. kickarse

    kickarse What's a Dremel?

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    heh.... yeah... just pointing out we do see certain things eye to eyeglasses :dremel:

    It's a good point about the whole thunderbolt thing. He could have made a thunderbolt and said follow god or else but the point of worship would have been lost. The point is to serve god out of a compelling love not out of an improper unhealthy fear of death and destruction.

    Jesus lived as a perfect example of his father and model for us to follow closely. As he even stated it wasn't his will but his fathers in heaven. Of course today if someone came up to us and said my father in heaven said to do this we would think he was nuts. But the many miracles he performed and the way he reasoned and talked and prophesied proves that he was God's son, not some lunatic. Jesus death was for a point of saving otheres, a selfless love for humankind and for his father in heaven. It was nothing of his own accord. The bible accounts show many times when Jesus could have died and narrowly escaped. Really putting home the point of his death was for a certain time frame. Showing there were certain things he had to do first. As he himself stated one time when Paul cut the ear off of a soldier to defend his friend, Jesus, Jesus healed his ear and rebuked Paul and said 'could I not ask of my father to help me', he states that he could summon 12,000 angels to his side in a second to defend him. But what was the reason for not doing so? Becuase there was an appointed time for him to die in order to fulfill bible prophecy and his father's will.

    Interestingly enough Jesus had free will to choose either to do his fathers will or not. As we have free will to choose what to do or not to do. It was obviously in Jesus best interest to do so. And therein setting a fine example for us to follow his footsteps as closely as we can being imperfect humans.
     
  9. ChromeX

    ChromeX Minimodder

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    There are some very interesting points being made here, I believe this could be one of the great bit-tech discussions of our time but I ask this serious question of you all...

    Could Jesus microwave a burrito so hot, that he himself could not eat it?

    Now theres food for thought :D
     
  10. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    Depends. Are we talking about one with extra halapeño peppers?
     
  11. ChromeX

    ChromeX Minimodder

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    Hmmm well this is the son of god so... yeah why not, its got all the halapeño's a mortal man could handle! So could he do it?
     
  12. f U z ! o N

    f U z ! o N What's a Dremel?

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    God cannot create something he could not do
     
  13. jc.com

    jc.com What's a Dremel?

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    Being the good guys shouldn't preclude defending ourselves. We have exactly the same choice of courses of action. It's a question of which ones we choose that makes the difference: IIRC, the decision to drop the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was taken on the calculated basis that overall, (including both sides) fewer people would suffer by the resultant foreshortening of the war. This seems to be a fairly civilised way of looking at it, in my book. I suspect we would both agree that war isn't a fun thing, and on the face of it, civilians getting bombed seems like a bad thing, but civilians were suffering all over the world at that time. If you have a better suggestion for ending a global conflict, I'd be interested to hear it - perhaps the politicians might take it up.


    I'll have to take your word for it - I don't carry one.

    Agreed


    I wasn't interpreting it. I was repeating what I was taught aeons ago in Sunday School: "Turn the other cheek" means "turn the other cheek". Perhaps a christian would like to comment on whether or not this point is open to interpretation.
    I don't know, in short. Not being a christian, it's not a dilemma I'll ever have. But I know that they would argue that what they did grew from christian motives, and be deeply offended by your suggestion that what they did was
    Life isn't as simple as we'd sometimes like to think, and sometimes hard choices have to be made. Fortunately it's unlikely we'll be faced with similar choices


    Yes, it would dilute the message, part of which was, I believe, "Turn the other cheek". It was not "turn the other cheek until you're really pissed!"


    WRT the halapeño question, see the earlier discussion on miracles.
     
  14. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    Well, yes, but that is sort of circular logic. If He can't do something, He can't do it.

    This is making my brain hurt... :p
     
  15. yodasarmpit

    yodasarmpit Modder

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    This thread is starting to make my brain hurt :D
     
  16. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    No, the good guys don't have the same choices, because they are not the bad guys. If they feel that they do, they are not the good guys anymore. Simple as that.

    Very. Let's burn thousands of people. Men, women, little children. It's all for the best.
    You mean it was actually a good thing?
    All they had to do is zap some uninhabited atols in graphic close view of the Japanese fleet. Then allow them to pick over the radioactive glass dish that used to be an island and let their imagination work it out. But the politicians had a new toy, and were eager to try out its full potential.

    I was speaking metaphorically. Proclaiming yourself the Good Guy (as you seem to do in the top paragraph) sort of suggests that you do --metaphorically.

    Call me short-sighted but I do not see anything Christian about making a weapon that can reduce a million people to radioactive dust. Like I see nothing Christian about dropping napalm on kids in Trang Bang, Vietnam (but they can always explain it to me, if they want).

    Yes, sometimes hard choices have to be made. Sometimes those choices involve being the one who suffers unfairly. Faith shows at crunch-time, and demands sacrifices --big ones. There are no opt-out clauses. Anything else is just self-satisfied ego-massage: "Aren't we good! Aren't we civilised!". Yeah, right.
     
  17. kickarse

    kickarse What's a Dremel?

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    Good points...

    Killing each other doesn't originate with human tendency. Sure we are imperfect and have fleshly desires, but to kill isn't human desire. This is something learned and unfortunately prevalent in the world. I don't think it matters what religion, christian or jewish, killing for any reason is wrong. Greed pushes humans to kill. Greed as the bible puts it is just as bad as immorality, adultery, iidolatry or homsexuality. This for good reason huh? Killing is also greed through self preservation. Then again we have mixed into their faith that God will avenge us of our enemies, so I guess not retailiating goes hand in hand.

    I think the problem is we are viewing things as too perfect. If someone has an idea of hurting their boss but their a hard worker and do good does that mean that becuase they thought of it their a bad person? No of course not, just imperfect feelings of being upset and frustrated. We can try and choose what to think and how to act. But being imperfect we can't perfectly control our thought processes and sometimes they tend to be selfish and evil. There's no way around it currently.

    I already explained about the whole turning the other cheek thing before...

    Could God make a firewall even he couldn't hack?
     
  18. jc.com

    jc.com What's a Dremel?

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    you managed to miss out the important part of what I posted. The decisons of both sides are the same, the options that are chose make the difference. Unfortunately for you, you know life isn't

    You seem to forget that thousands of people were burning anyway. Dropping the bomb helped reduce the number. Ideal? - no. Better than doing nothing? yes. Sixty years on, doing nothing may seem like a "good idea" but I suspect we wouldn't enjoy the life we do now if it wasn't for someone taking that decision. Being occupied by the Japanese was not like some corporate takeover, where you simply adjust to the new management.

    No I didn't. You know I didn't. Try to remain rational.



    That sounds like a good idea. Pity you weren't there to suggest it. Or maybe they thought about that and concluded it wouldn't necessarily have had the desired effect. I don't know. I wasn't there. However, I very much doubt anyone involved in the decision took it as lightly as you seem to think.


    Nope - I was simply born on the side that "won" WWII, and am quite happy about it.

    This all sounds great, but call me cynical, I doubt your noble principles would last long when it's your family being shot.
     
  19. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    OK, let's talk oversimplification for a moment. You present a complex moral dillemma: should we defend ourselves by any means necessary, or adhere to certain "good guy" principles even if it may turn out badly for us? How far can we go in defending ourselves before we become no better than the aggressor (and do we care enough)?

    Then you argue that the killing of n men, women and children can be justified if it prevents the deaths of n+x men, women and children. A simple equation of numbers... That such reasoning is an oversimplification however, can be demonstrated by the question of just how big x has to be to make this arguement stick. Is the killing of one million people justified if it saves two million? How about one-and-a-half million? How about one million one thousand? How about just one million and one? Where do you draw the line?

    My point is that the smug self-satisfaction of calling yourself "Christian" or the "good guy" comes at a big price. If people don't want to/can't stick to the principles that come with that, they should at least concede that they're only humans trying to defend themselves, no moral implications, no lofty ideals. It's just the law of the jungle: get them before they get us. Now there is nothing wrong with a healthy sense of self-preservation, but do not bring morals into it.

    Hey, you're the one trying to justify bombing civilians. That's the problem with rationalisations --you can rationalise anything if you put your mind to it. The most atrocious acts done to other people are based on good, sound "rationalisation".

    Not having been in that position, I really don't know. Perhaps I'll surprise myself (perhaps not). But at least I don't go around calling myself "Christian" and wearing a cross and going to church while building weapons of mass destruction (and selling them to dictators, while we're putting a contemporary slant on it). At least I recognise that principles come with a price tag attached. If you're not prepared to pay, don't join the club.
     
    Last edited: 28 Apr 2005
  20. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    Funny how we can disagree so strongly on some points, yet completely agree at the same time... :)

    In my view killing is an animal instinct. We basically are evolved animals so we still have that instinct. However if we want to be human, the trick is to transcend our animal origins and become more than what we are. Only humans have that ability. It is the only thing that differentiates us from animals. So our choice is: are we humans, or just some smarter kind of animal?

    The rest I pretty much agree with as it stands.

    And He could, but he'd have to use Linux. :D
     

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