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Current US riot situation

Discussion in 'Serious' started by KayinBlack, 31 May 2020.

  1. liratheal

    liratheal Sharing is Caring

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    While I'd not contend that the Dukes of Hazzard are/is racist, not having seen the show in any incarnation, I can't get behind the concept of 'the general lee'.

    The arguments put forth in favour of the car back in 2015 (WB stopped making toy General Lee's after the Charleston incident) being both;

    "I think all of Hazzard Nation understands that the Confederate battle flag is the symbol that represents the indomitable spirit of independence which keeps us 'makin' our way the only way we know how.'" - Ben Jones

    "I take exception to those who say that the flag on the General Lee should always be considered a symbol of racism. Is the flag used as such in other applications? Yes, but certainly not on the Dukes." - John Schneider

    Are, IMO, not really valid. Racism is all that flag stood for, ever.

    The flag, apparently, on the roof of the car (and hence the name) is the flag of Robert E. Lee - A man who, in my opinion, was racist.

    From a letter of his about slavery;

    It is idle to expatiate on its disadvantages. I think it is a greater evil to the white than to the colored race. While my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more deeply engaged for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, physically, and socially. The painful discipline they are undergoing is necessary for their further instruction as a race, and will prepare them, I hope, for better things
    .

    My reading of the letter is that while he considers slavery a moral and political evil, it's necessary to 'better' the slaves. The full letter is here; https://civilwarhome.com/leepierce.htm

    The conduct of the men under his command is not becoming of someone who would claim to be anti-slavery, either.

    https://deadconfederates.com/2010/07/01/old-pete-slave-raids-and-the-gettysburg-campaign/

    A TL;DR of that seems to be that, under his command, soldiers of the Confederacy rounded up freed Black Americans and, upon their return to the south, returned these people to the slavers who formerly "owned" them.

    Another piece about the same thing; https://www.post-gazette.com/news/s...orth-a-military-disgrace/stories/201306300221

    Effectively it states that Lee, while verbally denouncing the concept, did nothing to stop it.

    As a man of his military record, his position, he had every opportunity to prevent and/or punish the actions of the men under his command - But, as far as I can tell, that wasn't to be the case.

    Sure, there could be argument that the Confederacy was on the back foot militarily, and no one would have known this better than Lee - A man who, by all accounts, was quite good at the art of war - and that because of this he was reluctant to damage his own forces for the ideal of not pursuing freed slaves.

    Compare that, though, with the letter dated 1856 and I don't believe there to be much chance of his opinion having changed.

    The point I'm making here is that, by today's standards, the General Lee is not a car I could defend.

    The show might have a better argument for its defence (Being as it was based in Georgia, where Confederate support is, apparently, still quite strong however you slice it), but I still find it to be in poor taste. It was, after all, glorifying a man who had, at best, poor opinions of people of colour and fought for the continued enslavement of Black people before being forced into surrender. Literally. He was surrounded in the battle that lead to the surrender to Ulysses S. Grant.

    Had his surrender been under different circumstances, IE: Not surrounded, not having failed an attempt to break through the Union forces in front of him, I'd say that perhaps an argument could be made for the change of his mind on the position of the Confederacy. But since he was forced into surrender, I don't imagine the nine years between the letter mentioned above and his surrender changed his opinion drastically.

    To paraphrase a Batman film, "It's not what I say, but what I do that defines me."

    Robert E. Lee did nothing to prevent the continuation of slavery, and actively fought against the emancipation of slaves.

    IMO, he was not a good guy, and he definitely shouldn't be glorified in the way the Charger was from the Dukes of Hazzard.

    I'd not argue in favour of keeping the show around, were Dukes of Hazzard to be removed from sale/broadcast.

    Edit:

    I'd definitely argue that the people who came up with the General Lee are either dumb or racist.

    Interestingly, the General Lee's in the show had a much, much, shorter lifespan than the Confederacy, even though the show had a longer lifespan.

    Although apparently at least seventeen cars still exist from the show, so even those outlasted the Confederacy, despite the stunts.
     
    Last edited: 21 Jun 2020
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  2. walle

    walle Well-Known Member

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    It started to slide downhill the moment social unrest kicked off.

    You can't put 40 + million people out of work, then have them sit around in lockdown / house arrest, without having civil unrest.
     
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  3. Pete J

    Pete J Unemployed dole scum

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    Err...no?
     
  4. TheBlackSwordsMan

    TheBlackSwordsMan Far over the misty mountains cold

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    The Dukes of Hazzard isn’t racially biased nor is it trying to convey racist ideas; it’s about family, opposing corrupted cops & car stunts. That’s it. If nothing else, the show satirize the Confederation by destroying the General Lee over and over again, and by constantly ridiculing the crooked Commissioner Jefferson Davis Hogg (The main villain).

    Over 7 seasons, they destroyed an estimated 325 General Lee. During the final year, they found out that they'd created a shortage of Charger ' 69 and had to use AMC Ambassadors. They had to slow down on destroying them and had to use miniatures for Some of the jump scenes.
     
    Last edited: 22 Jun 2020
  5. liratheal

    liratheal Sharing is Caring

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    See, this is why I wouldn't comment on the show itself. Never seen it. All I know about it is that it had a hand in the popularity of the 69 Charger, although that is debatable given the 68 Charger used in Bullitt which, if I remember rightly, quadrupled the sales figures for the 68 compared to the 67. The 67 had basically halved the sales of the 66, so Bullitt was definitely a turning point for the Charger. Although with the long running of the Dukes of Hazzard, I dare say that helped cement the Charger as "the" B-Body to have amongst the Chrysler circles. Totally unrelated, but I much prefer the 62 Dart..


    I did read that - I also read that a guy who ones one of the surviving cars from the first season was planning to paint over the Confederate flag.

    All that said, though, I still don't believe the General Lee has a place in modern society. It's a product of its era, but I firmly believe that it should never have been slathered with Confederate nonsense, regardless of where the show was set and how popular that might have been in those places at the time (And currently, I dare say).

    And I still wouldn't advocate for the retention of the show on broadcast television or its sale on various media formats.
     
  6. KayinBlack

    KayinBlack Currently Rebuilding

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    There's no place for the Dukes of Hazzard in today's society. The very fact it was made is a testament to the longevity of the "unconquered South" idea. It was interesting to note there were no black people in Hazzard County. But when Jefferson Davis Hogg runs things, I'm pretty sure they got the message that this was a "sundown county." And you just know that if a POC had tried those things they'd be under the jail. Or swinging from a tree, just as likely. I know people were for less.

    They run around in essentially a barely legal race car with a hate symbol painted on the roof. They cause untold amounts of destruction to county and private property. These two have even used dynamite arrows, which are classified as a destructive device and are illegal to possess. They run alcohol, and have a still. There's like nothing they do that's legal. The moral is that the law is incompetent, and we do what we want. That's a terrible idea. Imagine what that attitude would do with a POC that crossed them. Maybe there's a reason there's no POC in Hazzard.

    In the South, the punch line for those of us that aren't "white" is generally punches. What most people see as innocent often has coded meanings. And the Duke boys are jam-packed with them. It's time they were canceled.
     
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  7. TheBlackSwordsMan

    TheBlackSwordsMan Far over the misty mountains cold

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    Indeed there were no Black folks living in Hazzard county yet Sheriff Ed Little (Don Pedro Colley) of the nearby Chickasaw county was black. He was a regular on the show and appeared in 13 episodes. His character was as strong, honest and by-the-book cop, unlike the crooked Boss Jefferson Davis Hogg. Also, it is worth pointing out that Duke of Hazzard featured at least 23 black characters during its 146 episodes run which was set in rural Georgia. As a comparison, Friends had 24 black characters during its 235 episodes run which was set in New York.

    I like fan fiction too. Maybe black folks flocked to Hazzard county after Jefferson Davis died of cancer but we'll never know for sure.
     
  8. TheBlackSwordsMan

    TheBlackSwordsMan Far over the misty mountains cold

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    IMHO Best car chase ever, Bill Hickman was one hell of a stunt driver. Totally unrelated, one of my favourite cars is the Tucker 48. :)
     
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  9. Vault-Tec

    Vault-Tec Green Plastic Watering Can

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  10. boiled_elephant

    boiled_elephant Merom Celeron 4 lyfe

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    For anyone who's still digging into the issue of police abuses and conduct in the US, this website and its success stories, in particular, are well worth a read:

    https://www.flexyourrights.org/success-stories/

    It's a site aimed at educating American citizens about their rights in encounters with the police, what the police can and can't do, and what to say to make sure they follow the rules. The stories are both uplifting and a bit depressing in that they seem to paint a consistent picture of the police just not knowing or honouring their own codes of conduct and constantly trying to get away with shortcuts and rule-bending, and treating innocent citizens like suspects as a matter of course.

    In this regard, I think the police culture in the US is very different to that in the UK and much of Europe. The fact that even being rude or disrespectful to police is actionable in the US sort of blows my mind. Here in the UK, I gather, you can pretty much talk to them however you like. Having an attitude isn't probable cause (and shouldn't be, imo).
     
  11. mrlongbeard

    mrlongbeard Well-Known Member

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    Mores the pity.
    Back in the day, what when I was but a young 'un, you respected the police and treated / interacted with them accordingly lest they give you a clip round the ear or even worse dragged you back to your parents for a word.

    Nowadays :jawdrop::eeek::eeek::sigh: it's a whole different kettle of fish, the police are seen as the enemy instead of part of the community
     
  12. RedFlames

    RedFlames ...is not a Belgian football team

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    Try it with a UK woodentop and see how it works out for you.

    ...though tbf you'd have to find one first.
     
  13. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Staff Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    So, err... How old are you? Do you predate the Massacre of St. George's Fields, 1768? Bloody Sunday, 1887? The Battle of Bow Street, 1919? The Hyde Park Riot that followed the National Hunger March, 1932? The Battle of Cable Street, 1936? The Battle of Lewisham, 1977? The Brixton Uprising, 1981? The other Brixton Riot, 1985? The Broadwater Farm Riot, 1985? The Poll Tax Riots, 1990? Brixton again, 1995?

    Disenfranchised members of the community rioting directly against the police and/or the government ain't nowt new.
     
  14. mrlongbeard

    mrlongbeard Well-Known Member

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    I'm a ripe old 46.
    I predate 6 of your events, but only remember 5 of them, and there's a wee difference between those events up there and how one would conduct oneself around the police day to day
     
  15. RedFlames

    RedFlames ...is not a Belgian football team

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    Lest not forget, one of Churchill's finest moments - Tonypandy.
     
  16. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Staff Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    Indeed. You wouldn't imagine five drunken louts kicking a copper to the floor, stealing his whistle, and dislocating his shoulder back in the day.

    Oh, wait, that was 1874 when Constable W. T. Oversby was 'confronting five roughs muddled with drink'.

    Beware the rose-tinted glasses - things haven't changed as much as you might think!
     
  17. mrlongbeard

    mrlongbeard Well-Known Member

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    There will always be outliers, beware of them, they should not reflect how the general public should deal with the police.
    And those arrested all received prison terms, nowadays they'd get nothing more than a fine for a few quid and asked very nicely to not do it again.

    You'll always have a-holes in the public and in uniform, neither should be allowed to drag everyone down to their standards.
     
  18. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Staff Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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  19. boiled_elephant

    boiled_elephant Merom Celeron 4 lyfe

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    On the subject of frictious historical relations between UK police and civilians, I can recommend the book Talking Blues, an older 70s/80s look at police perspectives on the troubles, miner's strikes, etc. Gloomy, but very interesting. I would echo Gareth's warning against rose-tinted glasses - I think more socioeconomically stable and rural communities tend to have lots of examples of nice police-civilian relations, but in more fraught areas it's always been a bit of a mess marred by violence and high tensions.
     
  20. mrlongbeard

    mrlongbeard Well-Known Member

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    Pretty much;
    https://westbridgfordwire.com/man-s...der-after-kicking-and-biting-police-officers/
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-53567930
    https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...ter-manchester-criminals-who-avoided-17504585
    https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/nuneaton-thug-avoids-prison-after-18586239
    https://www.spiritfm.net/news/susse...an-who-coughed-at-police-officer-avoids-jail/
    https://www.itv.com/news/london/202...d-police-officer-s-head-on-patio-avoids-jail/
    https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/...and-head-butting-police-officer-38754099.html
    https://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk...er-vandalised-window-cirencester-avoids-jail/
    https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/new...at-police-officers-face-avoids-prison-1312245
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...jail-spitting-police-telling-coronavirus.html
    https://metro.co.uk/2019/09/27/smirking-criminal-avoids-jail-third-attack-police-officer-10818767/
    https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...k-woman-assaulted-police-wythenshawe-17827693
    https://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/18288776.suspended-sentence-given-police-officer-assault/
    https://www.gazetteandherald.co.uk/...ded-sentence-attacks-police-officers-devizes/
    https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.u...n-avoids-jail-despite-spitting-police-2546996
    https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/police-attacked-spat-vile-attack-4231594
    https://www.glasgowlive.co.uk/news/glasgow-news/man-who-ordered-dog-repeatedly-17525221

    Regardless of the ratio it's bloody ridiculous that all of those that assault someone, police or no, don't get time inside to reflect on their life choices.

    But to be fair we could both carry on with this ad nauseam, it's more a reflection on the crappy CPS and judiciary than the police.
     

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