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Modding Custom TEC non-electric?

Discussion in 'Modding' started by vincentnone, 6 Jun 2008.

  1. vincentnone

    vincentnone enthusiast or fanboy?

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    this is for the water cooling comfortable really
    I came across an interesting "survive the apocalypse" guide, in it I found a guide to make your own ice without modern technology
    you'll be needing an aluminum bowl and some liquid ammonium nitrate and a liquid of your choice but water is most preferable
    you can not substitute the aluminum bowl for a plastic one or it will not work

    put the water in the aluminum bowl
    then stick the bowl on top of the liquid ammonium nitrate, direct contact
    within a short while it will have become ice
    the nitrate extracts all the heat from the water which results in the ice, I'll leave it up to you on where to get the nitrate but there was also a guide for extracting it from common fertilizer which is easy to find online, be warned however that you might look suspicious if you get too much or ask for it by name, but you don't need much
    a liter at most and even then that would last you for almost as long as your pump will work

    with some simple modifications to this recipe, you can attach a coldplate or tie it in with your radiator, or find another way around or through your system, simply running your tubing through the nitrate will not work however, as any kind of plastic, rubber, etc... acts as an insulator and will not allow the thermal convection to take place, however if you have the ingredients to work with metals in your loop then nothing is out of bounds

    at this point in time my camera is entirely broken and I'm trying to get the pictures off my sd card, I'll update when I get them
    what I did was build a glass tube and ran it though an empty 2 liter of mountain dew and attached my loop through it, its a thin pane of glass and could seriously break at any time but so far no leaks, I use MCT-40 for my coolant so I didn't exactly notice a huge drop, only down about 4 degrees after it stabilized, which took about 8 or 9 hours, my pump almost choked:eeek: but I noticed it took a lot more to even raise the temp 1 degree afterwards, I compiled some code and rendered an animation I'd been working on, pushed my cpu to the max for a few hours and had only 1 degree in rise

    so if nothing else, it can add stability to your system
    though I would seriously suggest you have a good pump and know your way around in modding and liquid cooling before you hop on

    as for where I got the glass, it was actually out of an old cold cathode light that died on me
    enjoy:brrr:
     
  2. vincentnone

    vincentnone enthusiast or fanboy?

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    should mention it's stable for 3 days so far
    also need to point out that you need condensation prevention in place if you don't have some already
    and very important to mention so PAY CLOSE ATTENTION!

    Do NOT turn off your pumps without disconnecting your container for ammonium nitrate first, if you leave your liquid idle in contact with the nitrate it will freeze, and will most likely break whatever is containing it, and possibly your pumps as well

    I have a metal container for the nitrate and the glass tube sits inside, I have quick shutoff valves hooked to both the case and the tubes to quickly disconnect it if need be, and when I turn my pumps off I can disconnect the system, then drain the excess left in the glass into a container
    I'm working on a way to drain it to the reservoir but no luck, so I'm considering hooking it up directly to try and chill the whole thing at once
    I'll let you know how it goes
     
  3. vincentnone

    vincentnone enthusiast or fanboy?

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    so this really isn't a top notch solution I admit
    but if you're insane enough to go for it it's worth it just for bragging rights
    when they tell you to avoid moisture and aluminum you need only worry about the aluminum in your bowl if any, the moisture isn't dangerous it just dilutes the compound, if you have anything that's still thermal conductive yet prevents condensation I would probably apply a thin layer to anything touching it
    the aluminum won't make it explode or anything, its just the nitrate is a strong oxidizer and can produce a bit of heat you don't want in this system, not to mention it could actually start a fire if anything is near it

    not to scare you off, this is a perfectly safe system if you use common sense, and it has already been proven on a massive world wide scale
    what am I talking about? Instant cold packs of course

    "Ammonium nitrate is also used in instant cold packs. In this use, ammonium nitrate is mixed with water in an endothermic reaction, which absorbs 26.2 kilojoules of heat per mole of reactant." ~taken from answers.com

    as for how long it will last, well I'm still working that bit out
    from what I understand if it is contained right then it should last about as long as I or you want it to, given that water doesn't come in direct contact with it, in such a case nothing special will happen, you'll just have instant ice crystals which if not taken care of could drop the entire temp of the compound to a level where it will crystallize, and then take forever to thaw out

    so a quick run down of best method to hook it up
    store it in a plastic container of any kind
    avoid anything that could boil your water (no fire){though it won't catch fire, its still not something you want and isn't a good idea to begin with*common sense*}
    when in contact with your liquid of choice avoid aluminum, I would suggest copper treated with some industrial paint, or glass is an excellent choice
    there's a good number of options for anti-condensation out there that will still conduct head that you can apply to the glass to prevent it from cracking and to prevent any water droplets from forming on it that might touch the compound
    a personal preference of mine is actually red x dope corona, I use it with my phase change cooling setup and it has worked wonders

    since yesterday I've actually had another 2 degree drop, it seems to keep dropping, just not at as fast of a pace now
    so I'm sitting comfortably 6 degrees lower than before, and apparently still dropping, the liquid doesn't seem to have expanded much, I drained just a bit before I hooked everything up to account for any expansion, and the pump seems to handle it fine as I expected

    I'm going to OC everything up a couple notches and see how well things go, I'm already pretty far up there, but I know I can get more because I have the same setup on my phase change and that runs a good 30% higher than what I'm at on this now, so I'll go slow, cpu first

    what do you think will happen next? my glass breaks and I get screwed
    I fry everything pushing it too hard
    some other catastrophe
    or I find a stable point in the system where the temp stops dropping but doesn't rise
     
  4. Cinnander

    Cinnander What's a Dremel?

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    Hmmm. I could be bigly misunderstandifying, but I don't see why putting some metal between some ammoica nitrate and some water would cause all the heat from the water to miraculously vanish into the ammonia nitrate. The cooling effect you require - ala instant ice packs - requires the two to be mixed so that an endothermic chemical 'reaction' can occur: the ammonia just dissolves into the water) and as we all learned at high school 'breaking bonds requires energy', which is why the mixture cools down - it pulls in all the surrounding thermal energy. It will gradually heat back up to room temperature, however. This could be used but would need an endless supply of both chemicals.

    Correct me if I've missed something big (you post did seem a little incoherent)
     
  5. Langer

    Langer Jesse Lang

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    This is totally interesting, but I don't think probable... can you post some pics to help us better understand your setup? I don't imagine ammonica nitrate having the energy potential anywhere close to that of a 400W pelt.
     
  6. vincentnone

    vincentnone enthusiast or fanboy?

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    putting something thermally conductive between the water and the nitrate prevents that said reaction and thus we have no ice build up
    and part of what you mentioned is kind of solved there, the ammonium doesn't dissolve and remains pure as long as it doesn't come in direct contact
    and the reason that it gradually heats up is because once all the compound is dissolved the reaction stops occurring and the ice melts
    the particular plastic ice packs use is somewhat thermal conductive and thats how you feel the cold and thats how the heat gets back in
    the ammonium nitrate is also pre-measured for the amount of water used
    in this case I'm using a relatively good amount and the reaction you mentioned not occurring allows it to be reused over and over
    if you happen to have a copy of "survive the apocalypse" on hand you can check it out in there as well, its actually where I got my idea from
    the article was on how to make ice once you've run out of electricity

    and I'm trying to get my pictures but the one hour photo place lost my SD card and since my camera is broke I'm boned to hell
    if they don't have it fixed by tomorrow I'll just get a disposable

    though I doubt it'll get me much further than where I have it now, the few extra degrees and the insanity of how it sounds is nice

    I moved my cpu up and my graphics and it didn't go back up too much, it's been shifting between 31.9 and 32.0 degrees F.
    it got down to 28, 29 yesterday and I thought that might be a problem, even if the flow is still going

    and I'm working on getting a detailed explanation of how the process works
    I'm kind of stuck at the fact that the compound draws the heat away from the liquid, the process is instant if in direct contact, and if not in direct contact as long as the separating material is thermally conductive it will still draw the heat away over time

    in my personal experience with it before I managed to make ice in about 6 hours with idle water in a small bowl
    so I was honestly a bit surprised that with a flowing liquid it only took around 9 hours to get to a low point like that

    I'm testing some washers tonight to see if they could add anything to the setup
    I did test an older radiator I had prior to this and it turned out OK, but the extra turns apparently were a bit of a problem with the reduction of flow I had ice buildup that eventually became a problem

    I was starting to wonder if anyone would say something

    and this is an entirely physical reaction and non-chemical, which more or less shows that the properties are there to begin with
    as long as there isn't a build up of the energy it should continue to work, and given the amount, a build up could take weeks and easy let off with an hour or two of allowing it to vent the build up into the air

    obviously I'm still trying to work out the specifics and the smaller details
    but the idea being sound in nature and limited practice so far, seemed worth while to post
    I apologize for being a bit erratic with the posts
    and I don't mean to contradict myself by telling you to avoid aluminum, it is a great metal for transferring heat but when it's in contact with your liquid it causes some problems unless you're already set up to treat it, copper not so much
    and I'm using aluminum as the container to disperse the heat and avoid any build up

    I'm finding that the oxidization isn't as bad as I thought it would be and with the industrial paint job it's almost non-existent

    I'll try to get back to all your questions each day
    so aside from everything else, it's a fairly nifty idea isn't it, if only for novelty purposes at least?
     
    Last edited: 9 Jun 2008
  7. Andy Mc

    Andy Mc Modder

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    I hope you can fix your camera or at least get the pics off your SD card as I wouldn't mind seeing this working.
     
  8. cpemma

    cpemma Ecky thump

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    Not another perpetual motion machine... :sigh:
     
  9. Cinnander

    Cinnander What's a Dremel?

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    That's kind of what I thought, cpemma :z Where is all the energy supposed to be going?

    The image I get in my head is a WC loop with, at some point, part of the outside of the loop containment (pipe/rad/block, etc) touching some ammonium nitrate, which is miraculously sucking in heat. I could be wrong; a diagram of the system wouldn't go amiss, I can't really figure out what it's supposed to be.

    Right, but how does doing this allow the cooling to happen? Ammoia Nitrate doesn't just suck in heat indefinitely - the two (AN + water) must be mixed for anything to happen.
    The reason it heats up is because once all the molecules have dissolved into the water there is no further chemical bond-breaking so no further energy is sucked in. The whole solution then draws in energy from its surroundings bringing it back up to room temperature. As far as I can tell, you seem to be implying that if you put metal between the two liquids, you can sustain this reaction indefinitely. :confused:

    You claim to have some kind of working system but without an image of some kind I can't see how you're using this effect without violating 2 or 3 laws of physics tbh :|
     
  10. vincentnone

    vincentnone enthusiast or fanboy?

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    you keep assuming it's chemical, and that there's actually a "reaction"
    but in fact it's only a transference of energy and is entirely physical like I mentioned

    just test the basics of the idea for yourself
    I honestly don't know how long it will continue to cool, and I'm not violating any physics laws, though some of which have already been proven false, however for lack of anything to replace them we've kept them which I think is totally boned

    and it's not perpetual motion
    I more or less so expect it to stop functioning at some point, but being that point is undetermined I have no reason to believe it will stop as of yet

    so to reiterate myself, just get yourself some ammonium nitrate and a metallic bowl, put some water in the bowl and the bowl on the nitrate, let it sit for a night and then ask the questions
    I'm a bit ill equipped to answer them because I honestly don't understand the process entirely
    I know A+B=C, but I don't know why A+B=C I simply know it is
    and I bought a disposable today, I'll have pictures tomorrow or the day after, depending on when I get to it

    and your idea of how it touches is about it
    water touches metal, metal touches compound
    Magical gremlins appear and heat vanishes in some obscure way
    though I don't think dipping your radiator in would be a good idea, you get better cooling from fans and a shroud in my opinion
     
  11. Flibblebot

    Flibblebot Smile with me

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    But the problem is that the heat must be going somewhere. In the words of the First Law of Thermodynamics, "Energy can neither be created nor destroyed, but it can be converted from one form to another."

    This means that if you are taking energy (heat) out of the cooling system, it must be going somewhere else, it can't simply vanish. The ammonium nitrate cannot absorb heat ad infinitum without something else happening, especially since you seem to be talking about a delta t of 30 or 40 deg c. It takes quite a bit of energy to cool the litre or so that's in a cooling loop, and keep it that cool once it's been past the heatsink dies.
    Really? News to me. Last I looked, the laws of thermodynamics were still working (my kettle still boils water)
     
  12. cpemma

    cpemma Ecky thump

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    Over the years I've used various methods of obtaining below-ambient temperatures in the laboratory. The main three methods
    • Evaporative cooling - blow a fine stream of air bubbles through a volatile solvent like ether, it gets cold. Needs a well-ventilated area. Our great-grandparents kept a moist cloth over the milk, same principle.

    • An endothermic reaction - mix two or more compounds, the reaction between them absorbs heat. Some examples here.

    • A negative heat of solution - dissolve certain salts in water, it gets cold. This appears to be the OP's method, and scientific laws apply. X grammes of compound produce Y calories in going from solid to solution where Y is negative. But once it's dissolved that's your lot, and as for cooling a CPU, think in terms of tonnes of chemical per hour. ;)
     
  13. steveo_mcg

    steveo_mcg What's a Dremel?

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  14. vincentnone

    vincentnone enthusiast or fanboy?

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    "Really? News to me. Last I looked, the laws of thermodynamics were still working (my kettle still boils water)"
    ~lol

    you know ether will explode with just a spark right?
    your site's first mix is the same for cold packs?

    anyway I mentioned it's in a metal container, which happens to be thermally conductive
    and the heat extracted from the water is dissipated into the metal and then cooled off by the air in the surrounding area
    not much unlike a radiator, though not nearly as effective

    as for today's update
    didn't take the pictures in
    and I more or less so found you really shouldn't use rubber feet on your container if it's metal
    for some reason I haven't figured out, I have a static problem with it
    so wtf??? I don't know how it's getting the build up, but I think the rubber feet might have something to do with it
    it's my best guess
    and wouldn't the nitrate be able to vent into the air after absorbing the heat it could just release it back out?

    still not seeing any broken laws...
    if you could elaborate further?

    and you know that this isn't my only cooling method right?
    the loop also has two radiators with fans on them that do most of the cooling
     
    Last edited: 11 Jun 2008
  15. cpemma

    cpemma Ecky thump

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    Do the maths. And try to understand the science.
     
  16. vincentnone

    vincentnone enthusiast or fanboy?

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    ... lol!
    for a moderator you're kinda thick aren't ya

    no chemical reaction, no endothermic reaction, its a simple transference of heat by contact
    when the liquid runs through your radiator does it have a reaction? no you say? then why does it cool down?
    my cooling liquid touches the glass which touches the compound, the compound by nature absorbs heat from nearby items of all kinds, though it does it much better with metals and liquids either with direct contact or indirect contact such as I have
    with direct contact you get instant results and is one time use
    with indirect contact you have to wait for a while but you can reuse it

    I can't make it much clearer
    liquid touches glass, glass touches compound, compound draws heat from liquid through glass via thermal convection or is is more like osmosis??? lol
    the heat then is transfered to the metal container it resides in, and is released into the air

    and not to abandon my thread or anything, but if you're logic remains as fouled as it appears to be, I'll just not bother with replying to your posts

    I've done the math and the science
    perhaps you need a hands on demonstration?
    so before you bother trying to insist that this isn't possible
    go and get some ammonium nitrate
    get yourself a metal bowl and put some water in it
    put the metal bowl with the water on the ammonium nitrate
    and let it sit there for 8 or 9 hours
    and try to tell me you won't get some ice

    and use some common sense with it, make sure the ammonium nitrate is a container that gets a bit of air and has enough of an opening to accommodate your metal bowl
    and yes the metal bowl should actually be touching the ammonium nitrate and not hovering over it
     
    Last edited: 12 Jun 2008
  17. Glider

    Glider /dev/null

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    Dude, it's impossible... The laws of thermodynamics prevent it... You get ice because the Amonium nitrate vaporises/reacts and draws the required energy from the water.
     
  18. capnPedro

    capnPedro Hacker. Maker. Engineer.

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    I think I still have some NH4NO3 left over when I was needing oxidising agents. If I get the time, I'll throw together a demonstration of it not defying the laws of physics.

    I don't have an Al bowl, although I don't see why this is necessary as the Al is anodized/whatever to prevent a buildup of Al2O3 which would form instantly.

    As I say though, I might make a video tomorrow, if I don't have the NH4NO3 (might be able to use coldpacks/fertilizer as a feedstock if you're lucky), I might be able to do it with KNO3 instead.

    Seriously, this isn't how energy transfer works; E=mcΔt - ask yourself what's c for water (4.19), what is it for NH4NO3?

    And it wouldn't be thermal convection or god damn mother****ing osmosis! The dispersion of a fluid from high to low concentrations? The ****. It's bloody conduction.

    Meh, yeah I've had a few drinks tonight. Time to stop posting.
     
  19. cpemma

    cpemma Ecky thump

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    Time to stop feeding the troll.
     
  20. Cinnander

    Cinnander What's a Dremel?

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    Yeah I'm kind of wondering if this is for real at this point.
    (I do want to get some of this magic chemical that just absorbs heat endlessly though, I'll put a drop on my heat sink and do away with the fan)
     

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