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DavenPort lyons Suing me

Discussion in 'Serious' started by matthew223, 9 Jul 2008.

  1. CardJoe

    CardJoe Freelance Journalist

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    You're assuming too much. I've seen studies before and price of the game in terms of piracy rate makes very, very little difference. All it changes is the way the pirates justify themselves. Instead of saying "Well, EA make crap games anyway and I probably wouldn't have bought it" they say "Pfft, 2DBoy are charging £10 for this, so it isn't exactly a proper game since they don't have a publisher etc."

    This is exactly what happened with 2DBoy, the makers of World of Goo. They made a very good 10/10 game that everyone loved, they themselves were small and part of the community, so they charged $10 if you buy direct and they didn't include any DRM at all. You could copy and give the game away as much as you want. They theorised that at $10 people would just buy it because the company was small and nice and so was the game and so on.

    They ended up with a 97% piracy rate.

    The interesting thing there is that a lot of that can be blamed on the lack of DRM, obviously. If you compare the figures to other games though then you see that not only does the price not make a difference, neither does the protection.

    Put simply: if you're going to pirate, you will. If you're going to buy, you will. It's something you make up almost regardless of the game itself.
     
  2. DXR_13KE

    DXR_13KE BananaModder

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    i agree with you, they are here to make money, the question is: are they adaptable enough? and do they want the bad press from suing possible clients?

    i agree with launch time prices, $50 for a game is a nice price if you convert it correctly to other currencies, BUT, after the first few months (or X amount of sales) the price of the game should go down, thus making it more attractive for people with less deep pockets, after a year or so (or after Y profit) they should put it on sale on GOG or make it dirt cheap, this way you will make a profit even after the game has passed away from the public eye or is no longer fashion.

    better yet, make a private tracker endorsed by the publisher with paid publicity spaces and a selection of games from that publisher that is selling very few copies on the stores, insta-profit and insta-brand loving, acopulate to this a comments space and you get the ability to see what your clients would change in the game, thus making your future games easier to make.

    piracy would not diminish much, but it would cause a noteworthy impact....

    that is my 2 cents at least...

    Remember that that 97% rate was calculated using IPs, and considering that lots of people use dynamic IPs...

    I am not here to go against your words, i agree completely with them.
    I want to add that to sell video games directly on the makers website is kind of new and weird, people are used to go to the store and buy a game, go to steam and get it there or simply pirate it.

    at least that is how i feel.
     
  3. boiled_elephant

    boiled_elephant Merom Celeron 4 lyfe

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    This kind of emergent abusiveness makes me ashamed to pirate, it really does. I feel morally unclean.

    My only remaining rationalisation is that I shall eventually buy the 3 or 4 titles I've been too poor to buy and have pirated recently. Because they're really good, and the guilt is exacerbated by the enjoyment, rather than watered down as I'd hoped it would be.

    I did come up with an outside-the-box model for games purchasing, though. Tell me if this would work:
    1. Pirate a game.
    2. Look up the companies involved and identify the chief creative force behind the game.
    3. Send them money surpassing the profit they'd receive if you bought it through distribution retailers, along with a letter of explanation.
    4. rinse, repeat

    The problem is, would the developer take the money and appreciate the gesture or refund it and report you to the authorities? Or would s/he be legally incapable of accepting it, for fear of being seen to encourage piracy?

    I realise the moral and legal lines are very, very far apart and that being morally correct doesn't make you legally safe...
     
  4. RTT

    RTT #parp

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    I guess I must be a heartless ******* then because I couldn't care less :lol: If free is a relatively risk free option, I'll take it every time
     
  5. CardJoe

    CardJoe Freelance Journalist

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    The issue there is - who are you to decide who the creative force is? Take BioShock as an example. Lead designer is Ken Levine, who concepted the game. So you decide to send him $10 and not to any of the other 100 people who worked on the game? Why? What if a level designer worked, as many of them do, until they nearly died trying to perfect their parts of the game?

    And, what if someone worked for 100 hours on a single tiny aspect of the game, but that bit still wasn't as good as a level that only took someone ten minutes?

    And what if the recepient of the money doesn't want to share it with anyone else?
     
  6. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    The problem is also that games do not just arive on your PC/Console by magic. There are media producers, packagers and distributors involved. Don't they deserve a buck for their efforts?
     
  7. AndyDEL

    AndyDEL What's a Dremel?

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    Says it all really..

    I detest piracy in games.. It's a true pet hate of mine, i've even had heated arguments with a close friend about him modding the firmware on his console. May seem silly - it is however, warrented.

    Best way i can put it across is to compare it to a physical product you buy every day.. - Lets say you like the look of a £40 shirt in GAP (Trailer of a game). You decide to try on that shirt (Demo of a game), it looks good, feels good... You just aren't quite sure you want to make the investment, i mean it's a £40 shirt (Game).. It's a considered purchase for most. Now this is where this the differences show, you don't walk out of GAP without paying for it do you.. I mean that would be stealing, how rude..

    Some will however, download a game and play on it.

    In society you know if you stole a shirt, it's wrong. Because a downloaded game is not something physical and tangable you can hold in your hand, it feels less wrong. It still wrong though.

    Now this is where another seperation between a t-shirt and a game comes into play, you instantly assume because you havent stolen a physical item, that the company has not lost out. The company has lost out though, it HAS lost your purchase. When you say "Well i wouldn't of purchased it anyway" it means nothing to me, you're using a product you haven't paid for. Therfore you're stealing, therfore the company is losing out.

    I know people who work at Lucas Arts, Microsoft, Codemasters and other smaller studios. You try explaining to them, the people who have worked for years on the product you're stealing. Products which sales have a direct affect on their jobs, salaries and ability to put a proof over their kids heads. Try and sell them the justification for why you do it, see what response you get.

    Whack as many cherries on a piece of poo as you like, it'll still stinks of ****.

    p.s: If i found out that any NHS trust had ripped off some of the patient management software i've worked on, i'd be straight on the phone to my solicitor. Not saying what DavenPort lyons is doing is right, but there is only so long you can keep kicking someone in the face before they kick back.
     
    Last edited: 19 Jan 2009
  8. kieran startup

    kieran startup What's a Dremel?

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    crime or not? isnt really the issue here..

    my complaint is how threatening and downright unpleasent davenport lyons have been. in their letter they compare it to walking into a shop and taking something, yet theft and shoplifting don't recieve a £500 penalty fine-and quite rightly in my opinion. also, to send out such agressive claim letters without even giving some kind of warning just proves what everybody must think when they read these letters-"wow, it must be so much more profitable to let these crimes occur then to prevent them". i got a claim letter from DL accusing me of downloading music, and immediately sent them a letter back saying: "the date and time you have given is impossible, and an ip adress is not enough evidence to prove any guilt, i would like to know what other evidence you have." (in so many words) that was a few months back and i still havent recieved any response from them. i was hoping for at least some personal correspondance specific to my case, beyond one of a barrage of mail-merged claim letters, but i dont think they're interested in talking to people who arent going to pay up.
    this certainly isn't justice-it's totally immoral extortion, if they were really interested in stopping downloading they should send a letter saying "it has come to our attention that you have committed an act of copyright infringement, if you do it again you may face legal action", i think something less heavy handed may well be more effective in beating piracy.
     
  9. Voluntary_Pariah

    Voluntary_Pariah a Real Man™

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    excuse me.....

    I thought that this thread was to help the people who have been SENT letters, not debate the finer points of copyright law. I'm not saying that what I have read isn't facinating, or useful, BUT this thread is for VICTIM support, so could you take it else where? (Cause I'm sure people don't want to have to wade through hundreds of posts discussing copyright to find 1 bit of useful advice)

    I was wandering if we had heard anything more from Davenport Lyons? Has anyone ACTUALLY been sent a court summons?

    I really feel for you guys and gals. I have been sent stuff like this in error before (not for piracy, but council tax evasion), and I know the stress and pain it causes.

    I hope you all get LARGE compensations for emotional damage
     
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  10. Jinkii

    Jinkii What's a Dremel?

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    Demand for £650 for a game i have never played

    This morning i got a demand from Davenport-Lyons demanding £650 settlement in regards of the copyright infringement of Two Worlds by Reality Pump.

    There were pages upon pages of "Evidence" into my guilt, even though i had never played that particular game.

    There was a MD5 hash which they assured me indicated their product (shrug). the alleged IP it was being uploaded from and my name next to it.

    I Contacted my ISP (Demon.net/THUS PLC) to ask if they had been implicit in this extortion attempt and they had never heard of it, plus they explained their policy on Copyright Infringement which states that if such an issue was raised with them claiming that i had been stealing software i would have been informed in writing and most likely had my account cancelled, neither of which events happened, they requested i sent the documents to them by fax/mail which i have done and am awaiting reply on it,

    So i would like to ask, is this some kind of joke? can a law firm send out threats and demands of settlement without the right to reply? can they send me "Evidence" from my ISP without ever actually contacting my ISP for said Documents?
     
  11. boiled_elephant

    boiled_elephant Merom Celeron 4 lyfe

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    This is why I'm stopping pirating stuff. It's not a moral issue for me exactly - the morals of it are so, so grey and muddled that I haven't decided how I feel about it. (Doesn't help that I'm doing ethics at the moment and just had a lecture proposing that there is never any moral basis for law-abiding :wallbash:) For me it's just fear of consequences - for games companies and legal firms, piracy is Serious F***ing Business, and they'll destroy your life over it. I hate their attitude to it all, and the way such a trivial cultural issue is given the heady moral scale of genocide and Mother Teresa. But it's not worth the risk; "I don't think it's wrong" isn't worth much in court.

    Worth mentioning is the concept, first popularised in Trainspotting, of 'victimless crime'. Stealing from small indie companies clearly impacts on their future, but pirating an EA game is hard to condemn. If you traced back the physical losses it'd be micro-currencies per employee. There's no way you're actually, individually harming them.

    If only one person pirated, it would be intangible - it's only wrong because everyone does it. So in effect, when Davenport Lyons rape you into financial ruin, you're being punished for the actions of all the other pirates who didn't get caught.

    Next time you meet an EA employee, ask him if he thinks that's fair.
     
  12. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    Davenport Lyons do not act out of moral, or even legal concern; they do it because they can make a buck. Sollicitors are amoral --they arguably have to be by nature of their job.

    The triviality is in the eye of the beholder; companies do lose money over piracy. More importantly, they lose incentive --why would anyone work hard on a product that people are going to take without remuneration, unless it is a hobby of yours and you do it for the glory?

    On the other hand, piracy is just a failure in self-targetted marketing --most people will pay something if the price is right. Greed doesn't pay either.

    Your ethics lecture proposal is wrong, by the way --some people are law abiding because of an internal set of moral principles. Some people regard certain things as just wrong, regardless of the consequences. This cuts either way, with martyrs and some terrorists providing a graphic example.
     
  13. boiled_elephant

    boiled_elephant Merom Celeron 4 lyfe

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    I trivialised the lecture massively just for the sake of using it as an example, the actual rap was more along the lines of
    It was basically about the disharmony between law and ethics. Often, the law seems counter-intuitive and not grounded in moral sense. Like you said, in this case it's about money, not what's Right. Which is what pisses me off. If Intellectual Rights and Copyright Infringement laws were informed by morality, the punishments wouldn't be so cripplingly severe - they would reflect the severity of your offense and the amount you'd cost the company, plus a little extra for future discouragement. As it is, you steal £10 and are harassed and emotionally duressed (word?) for months and charged the price of an average car. Lawsuits are bloody stupid.
     
  14. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    Not sure I entirely agree with the quoted argument. One can acknowledge the social necessity of the law and its benefits for society. In this case obeying the law is respecting and doing good by society.

    Blame the lawyers for that one. They make a living out of fostering and complicating conflict (else you wouldn't need them) and a salary proportional to the fines raised. Most disputes settle better for all parties involved when lawyers are left out of it.
     
  15. fathazza

    fathazza Freed on Probation

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    While Davenport Lyons havent exactly handled their end of the whole thing in a proffessional manner. They arent entirely to blame. They arent alone in this and act only on their clients instructions.

    It seems largely to be second rate games companies who released crappy products making a quick buck. DL will be probably be billing them on time spent on the cases/letters etc rather than getting a % of the payouts.
     
  16. dumde

    dumde What's a Dremel?

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    There are two fatal flaws in DLs plans...

    The letters are sent un registered, there is no proof they even turn up at the correct address.

    An IP address date and time is not enough evidence that you have done anything.

    Seems like DLs game is to scare as many people as possible into paying. £500+ for a single infringement would be laughed at.
     
  17. CardJoe

    CardJoe Freelance Journalist

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    I'm going to slip in here and agree with an original poster - ethics arguments don't belong here. This thread is for supporting people who are wrongly accused and providing information for them. This on-going discussion of "Is it legal or not" is relevant, but belongs in a seperate thread.

    Let's keep this discussion on topic for those who don't want to sift through the spreading bile - put other discussions elsewhere.
     
  18. dumde

    dumde What's a Dremel?

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    Everyone is innocent until proven guilty, and this seems to be the bit DL have the problem proving.
     
  19. Doyleyboy

    Doyleyboy What's a Dremel?

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    got the letters a while back. paid it around the time of when someone got done for £16k. its still unfair what they're doing and completely wrong in my book (ip address != person, etc), but couldnt take the risk.

    always try to buy games, as being a hobbiest game developer myself, think they/we deserve some payment for the work (and it is work!)
     
  20. dumde

    dumde What's a Dremel?

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    Paying admits to the guilt, expect them to come back for more.
     

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