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Defending Your Home

Discussion in 'Serious' started by Guest-23315, 5 Apr 2018.

  1. Guest-23315

    Guest-23315 Guest

    With the press in the UK currently taking about the Pensioner who killed a Burglar, I was wondering what peoples thoughts were, as its a sticky subject.

    I remember the Tony Martin case from back in the day and the outcry over him being sent to prison for Manslaughter.

    I think my starting position is - If he wasn't out there committing burglary, he wouldn't be dead - but Id like to hear others opinions.

    (I know this is different in the US with Guns, so mainly directed towards UK)
     
  2. ElThomsono

    ElThomsono Well-Known Member

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    The trouble is that there were two of them. If it was just one he could have been swept under the rug and no-one would have known.

    Starting point: I don't think burglary should carry the death penalty, but I do feel that you should be given a greater allowance of what constitutes reasonable force when your own home is being invaded.
     
  3. VipersGratitude

    VipersGratitude Well-Known Member

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    It's just an inflammatory headline to get views. While the police are obligated to investigate - just in case it was a murder with no mitigating circumstances - if it ever went to court it would be quickly thrown out. UK law allows you to use reasonable force, especially when burglar is armed.
    Nothing to be outraged about here, move along.
     
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  4. Corky42

    Corky42 Where's walle?

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    The things is because reasonable force isn't defined in law it's down to judges and juries to decide, in this case if it was reasonable to stab someone armed with a screwdriver with a knife.

    Personally if someone broke into my home then for me all bets are off.
     
  5. Guest-23315

    Guest-23315 Guest

    Thats the bit I was thinking about as well - is a single stab wound reasonable force? is 2? is 10?
     
  6. Corky42

    Corky42 Where's walle?

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    Is there any info on how many times the guy was stabbed? I had a quick look online but couldn't find mention of the number.

    For me reasonable would be 2-3 times, i know that's probably going to be seen as excessive and it's not something I'm comfortable with but i know, from personal experience, how the red mist can descend and result in behavior that's totally out of character.
     
  7. Guest-23315

    Guest-23315 Guest

    I say a witness report on the Beeb that said a single stab wound - but thats a witness on the Beeb.
     
  8. Mr_Mistoffelees

    Mr_Mistoffelees The Lunatic on the Grass.

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    It's impossible to make any kind of judgement here as we know absolutely nothing about what happened in the house and we have absolutely no idea how the burglar came to be stabbed. For all we know he could have fallen on the screwdriver.


    It seem to me these days that they are required to find someone to put on the screen who claims to be a witness, even though said "witness" has no idea what happened and saw nothing.
     
  9. Anfield

    Anfield Well-Known Member

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    The problem with that is that the consequences of a single stab wound can vary a lot, so do you treat 10 relatively minor stabs the same or differently as a single stab that was much more effective?
    So the consequences of the stabs should have more weight than the pure number of stabs.

    Personally I would draw the line at the point where the victim can be sure the attacker will be unable to continue the attack.
     
  10. Sentinel-R1

    Sentinel-R1 Chaircrew

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    Reasonable force would be quantifiable as an amount of force, and no more than that, used to stop the attacker(s) from continuing their activity. When it comes to lethal force, It would be extremely difficult in a court to justify if it's use resulted in a death for anything other than the protection of human life. Protection of pets and property would not be justifiable. This is where the boundaries blur with burglary. The homeowner would have to have a genuine and honest belief that his or her life was in danger, or that the lives of other family members in the property at the time of the attack were in mortal danger. Only then could you justify the use of lethal force.

    I don't think anything will come of this particular case. A reasonable use of force, applied to protect human life - sadly at the cost of another.
     
  11. Corky42

    Corky42 Where's walle?

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    Trying to prove, or argue in a legal sense, the difference between lethal and reasonable force seems like something that would be difficult, reasonable force could be a punch but people have died from a single punch before and IDK how much force is need for a stab with a knife to puncture the skin but i would imagine it's dependent of the type and shape of the knife used.

    I guess that's why these things are sorted out in the courts on a per case basis.
     
  12. GeorgeStorm

    GeorgeStorm Aggressive PC Builder

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    Yeah, and for example if the 'attacker' fell onto the homeowner, that's different from the homeowner pushing them down and following it up by stabbing them for example.
     
  13. Sentinel-R1

    Sentinel-R1 Chaircrew

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    It's much more simple than that. Lethal force, by its very definition, is a force applied that is likely to cause serious injury or death to the other person. You can strike someone round the head with a coffee cup with lethal force, despite no death occurring.

    It doesn't always mean that force is applied with the intent to kill. If you attack someone with a knife, even without the intent to kill, you're still applying lethal force. Whether that is reasonable or not, depends upon the situation however it can indeed be applied reasonably - which is how I think this case will play out in court.
     
    Last edited: 5 Apr 2018
  14. bawjaws

    bawjaws Well-Known Member

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    To be fair, this may not even get to court. He's been arrested but not charged (at least, not yet). I think it's pretty reasonable for the police to investigate the circumstances whenever someone is killed, but that doesn't mean that this guy will definitely end up in court.
     
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  15. Guest-23315

    Guest-23315 Guest

    It seems it was a single stab wound, and as he's been bailed, I think they've a good idea to what must have happened.
     
  16. Spanky

    Spanky Active Member

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    This. Sorry but i would of done the same had i have caught the guy doing the same , whos to say the pensioner wouldn't of ended up being the fatality? Fair play on that man , i hope he sets an example to all potential scum bags who think they can burgle people and get away with it.
     
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  17. RedFlames

    RedFlames ...is not a Belgian football team

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    This may be of interest and/or relevance to the thread -

    Bashing burglars and the law of self-defence --The Secret Barrister

    the most relevant bit for those who cba to click -

     
  18. liratheal

    liratheal Sharing is Caring

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    IMO, if it was a reasonable - in the heat of the moment - response, then I don't see an issue with the burglar being killed in the process of committing a crime.

    Of course, if the burglar broke in, saw the guy with a knife, and said "I'mma gettin' outta here" (Comedic Italian accent optional), but knife-guy decided to stab him half a dozen times in the back - That's not really 'reasonable' in any sense of the word.

    It does depend on the situation, but generally I suspect a front/side stab wound stands reasonably within self defence, a stab in the back, not so much.

    It's also not reasonable to expect everyone in that situation to know where they can stab and be less likely to be fatal while still incapacitating, so..

    Eh, self defence is self defence. It was right he was arrested until they could ascertain all the facts, but I don't think he deserves punishment. He's likely to need therapy for the whole.. Having killed someone as it is.
     
  19. Sentinel-R1

    Sentinel-R1 Chaircrew

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    You're absolutely correct. It's no different for us when it comes to rules of engagement. We're protected by law if we engage somebody committing an act or about to commit an act likely to endanger human life. If they cease and start to run away, shooting them in the back is a no-no, obviously.
     
  20. mrlongbeard

    mrlongbeard Well-Known Member

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    Y'know, you can use unreasonable force as a 'homeowner' in the UK against such scally wags.
     

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