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Motors Diesel or petrol?

Discussion in 'General' started by CrapBag, 25 Feb 2020.

  1. wyx087

    wyx087 Homeworld 3 is happening!!

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    https://www.wired.co.uk/article/diesel-pollution-scandal
    "Fifty-one million diesel cars in Europe are still emitting three or more times the legal limit of nitrogen dioxide"

    I hate the fact one of my car is still diesel. Buying petrol doesn't help either, as science finds new evidence, the goal post for clean vehicle moves and you'll still be targetted to pay tax or replace your vehicle.


    The only way to really move forward is to go zero tailpipe emission, where if the politicians want to clean up the air, they would talk to the energy supply industry. Unlike any latest ICE innovation, where only the latest model year get greener. Every 1% emission reduction in the energy grid is 1% emission reduction to all EV's, old and new.

    But in early 2010, we only got the ugly Nissan Leaf and other terrible attempts at EV by ICE manufactuers. As ICE makers who happen to assemble cars, it is in their interest to keep pumping out cars that rely on ICE, it is in their interest to make sure people still feel ICE are exciting and the only option for cars, it is in their best interest to influrence policy makers and allow them to build polluting cars. ICE car manufacturers are the root of the problem.


    So, please, if your situation allows (have driveway, need a second family second car, etc), consider getting an EV. Their total cost of ownership is soooooo much cheaper than the sticker price suggest.

    SImply take your yearly fuel cost, 2/3 of that can go to paying off the shinny newer electric car because your fuel cost is going to be less than 1/3 of your efficient 50+ MPG diesel. Then there's other benefits to consider: less maintenance, instant torque, smooth and quiet ride, best of all: perfect legal cabin pre-conditioning.
     
  2. Fingers66

    Fingers66 Kiwi in London

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    Whilst I believe that electric cars are the way forward (until hydrogen or a.n.other technology supercedes them), I worry about the manufacturing and disposal of the batteries potentially being a larger problem than ICE's once scale kicks in.

    Are electric cars (with current battery technology) just a stop-gap until better energy storage appears?
     
    Last edited: 9 Mar 2020
  3. wyx087

    wyx087 Homeworld 3 is happening!!

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    Well, there are already companies out there to recycle used EV batteries into stationary storage batteries https://www.powervault.co.uk/
    So end of life batteries from EV's shouldn't be an issue. At least not until after many more years of service as stationary batteries. By then, recycling techniques will be in place. I hear from one of recent Fully Charged show panel, battery recycling is certainly possible, just need to scale it up to reach economy of scale.

    There's no doubt there's HUGE of room for improvement in the energy storage part of EV's. Could be fuel cell, could be solid state battery, who knows. But I feel we, as people loving tech, should dive into this just like we back when we adopting early graphics cards, pushing the envelope. The journey is part of the fun isn't it?

    The public charging infrastructure is also so far behind, it's not even funny. Luckily, unlike fossil fuel or fuel cell cars, EV can spend all its life without needing any public infrastructure.

    Having said all that, unfortunately it's not yet time to ditch fossil fuel (in petrol hybrid form). Currently, EV is only really suitable for multiple car families who owns house with driveway and drive no more than the EV's range (eg. I commute 60 miles a day in my 60 miles Nissan Leaf)
     
  4. mrlongbeard

    mrlongbeard Multimodder

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    So you're just going to ignore NEE's :jawdrop: ?

    You heartless orphan kitten slow death killing monster.
     
  5. mrlongbeard

    mrlongbeard Multimodder

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    OK, my mileage is 25,000 a year, 170 miles a day, I can't recharge at work and my budget is £5,000 (max I'd ever spend on a car ever) which make and model do you suggest.

    Got that, last car had that, the car before that had that, it burns diesel though, and I've never needed to use it.
     
  6. wyx087

    wyx087 Homeworld 3 is happening!!

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    I find it unlikely your £5000 car can have legal remote control preheating. What is this super special old car?
    Remember, you are not supposed to leave your engine idle unattended. Big no-no on public roads and if internal combustion becomes external on your drive, highly doubt insurance will cover this.

    As I said, current state of things, EV is not for everyone. Hence the qualifier "if your situation allows". But EV should be the first option to consider, only if this is unsuitable, then look at hybrids.
    The lifetime EV carbon emission will certainly be lower than vast majority of ICE car out there.
    https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-how-electric-vehicles-help-to-tackle-climate-change
    https://theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/EV-life-cycle-GHG_ICCT-Briefing_09022018_vF.pdf
     
  7. mrlongbeard

    mrlongbeard Multimodder

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    Honda Civic, and a Honda Civic before that and an ancient MG ZT before that.
    No need to run the engine, just set the timer or use the remote to fire up the Webasato heater in the MG or the electric pre-heater in the Honda's.

    Carbon, Shmarbon, s'all about particulates, specifically those generated by tyres and brakes. These will be the next sacrificial lambs.

    https://www.emissionsanalytics.com/news/pollution-tyre-wear-worse-exhaust-emissions

    I'd have an 100% electric tomorrow if I could, wouldn't bother with a hybrid as my route does not favour their use
     
  8. wyx087

    wyx087 Homeworld 3 is happening!!

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    The thing is, you will get less brake dust driving EV because a large amount of slowing down in EV is done by regenerative braking.

    Overall tyre dust particles may also be less. The "research" papers cite EV weight as cause for more tyre dust. But most ICE cars are front heavy. So actual weight on front wheels will be comparible between ICE and EV. Only the rear wheels on EV will produce slightly more dust particles than ICE counter parts.

    Hopefully only need to change the tyres rather than the whole car, when the solutions appear.

    Nice. I would like a Webasato in my fossil fuel car, they are not installed as standard. Fitting them costs quite a lot :(

    The Honda must have a HUGE battery. I regularly use 1 kWh when pre-heating the EV in winter. Normal car 12v battery are 0.4-0.9 kWh total capacity, with 50% discharge limit.
     
  9. mrlongbeard

    mrlongbeard Multimodder

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    But tyres which release less particulate matter are going to be harder, harder tyre = less grip, less grip = more accidents.

    IIRC the webasato was an option from new on the MG.

    Battery isn't massive, it doesn't need to be, it's only a small electric heater and one blower fan, and it only has to heat the cabin not warm up a bank of batteries like EV's have to.
    But as said earlier, here in good old blighty I've never found a reason to use it on any of my cars, we hardly get weather bad enough.
     
  10. RedFlames

    RedFlames ...is not a Belgian football team

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    Can't afford an EV [a 2nd hand Nissan leaf is still ~£10k, more if you want one of the newer, not-terrible ones], nowhere to charge one if I could [on street parking, work from home, no usable public charging points].

    ICE cars are, ime also cheaper to insure, often the difference more than offsets the lower/no VED.

    They need to get much cheaper and the charging much faster and more prevalent to be anything i'd even remotely consider.

    You couldn't pay me to touch most Hybrids.
     
  11. ElThomsono

    ElThomsono Multimodder

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    It's nice to go out to a fully de-iced and de-misted car with perfect visibility. And unlike Webastos, in the middle of summer you're getting into an air-conditioned box and not an oven. It's a small thing but an instant advantage all EVs have by the nature of their design.
     
    wyx087 likes this.
  12. mrlongbeard

    mrlongbeard Multimodder

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    I can understand why some would like that, personally I find it all pretty pointless, but then I'm an ex-smoker, I have my window down whenever I'm in a car.
    I'm 46 or 47, I forget, this civic is the 3rd car I've had with aircon, when it breaks like the last 2 it'll stay broken, it's nice to have but not essential and not worth paying money for.
     
  13. wyx087

    wyx087 Homeworld 3 is happening!!

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    Unfortunately EV isn't ready for you do adopt yet, the public charging infrastructure is too few to rely upon. Unless you REALLY want to go the extra mile (as in walk to nearest charger every day) in order to drive an EV, not having home charging will be a burden to your ownership experience.

    The 2013 or later Nissan Leaf should be below 6k now. Compared to similar age cars, it's probably only very slightly more expensive. Granted, they cannot work as single do-everything car. But as second local runabout, they are far better cars than likes of petrol Polo or Yaris. Especially if your OH want automatic and small cars clutch based autos will wear out in stop/go city traffic.

    I'm not sure about that. EV tend to be slightly more expensive to buy, so being slightly more expensive to insure is to be expected. For insurance price, if you compare a £40k EV against a similar power automatic £40k ICE, it will probably be similar.

    But my experience is as follow:
    '63 reg £8800 Skoda Octavia auto 10k annual under my 10+ yr NCD: £590
    '64 reg £8900 Nissan Leaf 12k annual under my wife's 4 yr NCD: £650
    Seems similar for two very similar cars.

    Cheaper, yes. I place the blame squarely on ICE makers who also happen to assemble cars. They had been dragging their heels over the last decade, resisting electric motors to drive the wheels. Even today, in parallel hybrids, the electric motor is hugely underpowered. They still want everyone to think ICE is ideal to drive the wheels. But the reality is that with such a narrow power band and such slow responce, ICE is only suitable as electric generator at a push. Electric motors respond instantly, they have a very wide power band removing need for multiple gears, and they are highly reliable + maintenance free.

    Charging faster for daily use is questionable. The national grid tend to have a lot of spare capacity overnight. Road-side or driveway overnight charging would be ideal for mass EV adoption without needing to expensive upgrades on the grid infrastructure.

    For long distance trips, today's better EV's can recover 120 miles within 20 minutes. After 2 hours of solid motorway driving, taking 20 minutes break is pretty standard. But only if you can plug in when you arrive at service station. This is where I slag off public charging infrastructure again.........

    You may be surprised to see all new cars these days are hybrid to some degree. ;)
     
  14. sandys

    sandys Multimodder

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    I’m pretty happy with the idea of electric, just not really happy with what is available and the cost, with nearly all electric cars it feels like you are paying up front for the fuel rather than saving anything, most EVs have a high sticker price but feel cheap like Tesla etc, I say that as someone who actively bought into the idea early on and waited patiently for my model 3 before dropping my order, I may have continued with it if it could have towed more than 900kg.

    I like the whole idea but as a car enthusiast who enjoys the experiences of driving on road and track, electric is not doing it for me, perhaps I am just too old for it, I like buttons over screens, I like engine noise and I like doing my own gears, I like lightweight rwd sportscars….I am probably going to be an old beardy weirdy at classic cars shows talking about the good old days of burning fossil fuels.

    So I decided to drop the idea for myself and look at replacing my missus’ car with something with eletricfication, her use case is perfect, max 20 miles a day in city traffic, unfortunately whilst electric is perfect for her in terms of preference for heavy lumbering SUV, her car needs to be able to tow stuff (caravan and race car) and EVs are bunk at that, so I have been doing research into Hybrids, most have limited tow ability or sub 30 mile range, set in ideal test conditions, which let’s face it, I’m in the UK, we never get ideal conditions, we seem to have ~6 months of wet wintery cold conditions which means it’s always going to be on the ICE unit as she’ll be cranking heaters, heated seats, wipers and lights etc, so we’ll really just be carrying loads of extra weight leading to higher consumable use and not really benefiting from the electric.

    So until I can get something EV that can do everything a proper car can do I don’t know when I will adopt, X5 xdrive45 or GLE 350de might be my answer for the missus but even she baulked at the sheer size of them, her ideal size of SUV is something like a Sportage.
     
  15. Fingers66

    Fingers66 Kiwi in London

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  16. sandys

    sandys Multimodder

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    Outlander was my first port of call as one of the first and most popular Hybird that can tow, reading through the forums related to that model is where you discover its issues with range in anything but clement weather.

    You would really want the newer 2.4 with larger battery that has more chance of being useful but that still doesn't negate the fact that the rest of the car is like a 4x4 from the 80s, if a car ever needed a refresh my god is it that one, obviously styling etc is all subjective and just my opinion but its like some one retro fitted electrics to an old car.

    We could limit ourselves to 1500kg, but that is our minimum really, the real downside of the outlander is that its engine doesn't have enough torque to pull the skin off a custard :p hence its failure in hill start tests, no good if you tour down south, you need power and torque to tow, something an actual EV would excel at if it didn't totally decimate range, still I am not against a pure EV, I believe in these cases I could plan around range and charge more frequently as it is probably less than 10% of the ownership of the car we'd be doing that. (perhaps 3 holidays and ~15 race weekends 100-200 miles away)

    The XC40 recharge might be the ticket for full EV, if you assume that over the next few years infrastructure will be sorted and everything will be OK (positive thinking) in that it is the right size to fit in shopping car parks etc, and can tow 1500 with 100kg nose, but for an addtional 10k the X5 and GLE with 50-60mile hybrid are probably more realistic prospects if you assume UKGov is going to be lacklustre on infrastructure as it is with everything else but they are proper tanks.
     
    Last edited: 10 Mar 2020
  17. wyx087

    wyx087 Homeworld 3 is happening!!

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    Heating up the cabin sufficiently to feel warm and melt frost on windscreen will still need ~1 kWh of energy in my experience. More than regular 12v battery can provide. Also, smaller the heater, the slower it heats up and more energy it uses.

    I have a 2 kW space heater in my dirty diesel, I need to run it for 30 minutes on really cold days to achieve similar effect as ~15 minutes on Leaf.

    Heating the battery depends on the car. Most EV will not waste energy pre-heat the battery unless plugged in or unless it's really really cold (think level of cold that requires engine block heaters).

    On Nissan Leaf, the battery doesn't have any heating/cooling capability, it's really dumb.

    The mass adoption of EV will actually help you with this. Car enthusiasts who prefer those should still be able to do it on the track. While everyone else who don't really care will get a car that's easier to drive.

    But I have to say, I really like the Model 3. After test drive the Model 3, stepping into Leaf felt like going back to a 90's car. Going from Leaf into similar age Skoda Octavia felt like going back to stoneage age: the noise, the non-linear throttle, the slow response and the jarring stopping sensation.

    Unfortunately I have zero faith in the long-distance travel rapid charging infrastructure. I would not put my money on any longer range EV's for long distance travel unless it has access to Tesla supercharger network.

    So as I previously said, EV isn't for everyone. But if it can work for you, they are better in every way.
     

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