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Steam DotA 2

Discussion in 'Gaming' started by Loafers, 15 Aug 2011.

  1. Sloth

    Sloth #yolo #swag

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    Finally got to try out the reworked Silencer last night, far more interesting and enjoyable to play now. Played four games and randomed him three times.

    The change which really got me excited fixed one of my biggest complaints with the hero: Last Word's intelligence steal was obnoxiously picky requiring the enemy hero to die while in range (750 iirc) and silenced by Last Word. The intelligence steal, for anyone unaware, is now a flat 2 int from any enemy hero that dies within 900 range of Silencer and here's the big change: this effect is now tied to the Glaives of Wisdom skill. A nifty addition to that is if an enemy dies to a Glaive, even outside of 900 range (say they Force Staff'd while the projectile was in flight) Silencer still steals int. Gives much more incentive to gank, and to team fight. The game as a whole is shifting towards player kills as a greater means of gold and exp, it's a good fit for this.

    Last Word's change to work better with this is also awesome. Damage and silence if the ttarget enemy casts a spell within 5 seconds, damage, silence and disarm if they don't. Starting at 150 damage this can be a mean level one nuke, and levelling it early goes all the way up to 300 damage. It changes Silencer's playstyle to be much more active and direct, it allows you to deal much more direct damage than Curse of the Silent and actually gives you a castable silence other than your ult. What a concept for Silencer to have a silence!

    A final small change which actually makes a huge difference for how much I enjoy the hero was a mana cost tweak on Curse of the Silent. It now starts at 75 mana and goes up in cost. It's now a much stronger harrassing tool as it can be used far more requently at low level and against many heroes will cost less mana than the spells they'll be casting to remove it. Pick yourself up a Sage's Mask to go into an Orchid later and you'll have plenty of regen to force any hero out of mana (KotL excluded).

    It's a bit late, but that's my thoughts on the changes. Much needed and very well done.
     
  2. hamza_tm

    hamza_tm Well-Known Member

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    Very good outline! Saves me having to work out what they do when I eventually play him :)
     
  3. mucgoo

    mucgoo Well-Known Member

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    Anyone got a key spare?
     
  4. Baz

    Baz I work for Corsair

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    I have plenty. add me on steam for dota shenanigans.

    I'm Bazmataz
     
  5. Sloth

    Sloth #yolo #swag

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    More hero perspective/rambles! This time: Tiny. I believe this was my first game as Tiny in Dota 2. Having played Pebbles in HoN a couple times it wasn't a completely new experience, but it's been a couple years and my own skills have greatly improved since then. Having a friend in the game to give advice was a huge help as well.

    Initially it was worrying: I was mid against Pudge. Playing so many squishy heroes, Pudge brings on a cold sweat for me. Tiny, however, changes that. A Hook+Rot combo is still extremely dangerous, but there are some ways you can fight back. First, if you're hooked: get ready with your Q (Avalanche). Place it right at his feet, throw in a nice Toss (W) for good measure, and run away (unless you think you can kill him instead, it's risky). Having a quick cast stun like this can stop you from getting ulted and gives time to run away. Another trick which my friend suggested: while Pudge is using his Rot for creep kills, hit him with Avalanche. It does damage, and Pudge can't turn off his Rot while stunned. With a Bottle and decent rune control you can get some serious harrass going like this.

    But enough about Pudge specifics. What should a Tiny be doing? As anyone who has played against him probably knows: ganking. My main complaint about being mid lane which I've been trying to get better at is the pressure to gank. Thankfully, Tiny makes things easy. You have a somewhat ranged AoE stun which does fairly large damage and a quasi-ranged AoE nuke. When levelled earlier the two of these abilities in tandem can kill most softer heroes, particularly since you likely have a level advantage over side lane heroes. Simply run up to an enemy who either didn't know to or didn't want to back, land a Q, hit 'em with W, auto-attack as needed. You can even safely tower dive against heroes without a way of keeping you at the tower (such as roots or stuns), particularly with Haste.

    My experience, playing as, against and with, is that once you've left mid to gank there's no need to return, except to also gank that lane. At this stage, around level 8 or so, you're at your prime. Your nukes won't be getting any stronger once they're maxed while enemy heroes will only be gaining health. All you need is your three B's: Bottle, Boots, Blink. Make the most of this time while you can, you won't be as strong in the late game. Many people have probably seen Tiny's seem like carries late game with crazy damage and attack speed but more often than not this is the result of gold revenue from heavy ganking earlier on, not hard farming. If you want to be that guy hitting for 400 damage with a cleave then get ganking!

    Overall I'm glad to have done fairly well with my "return" to this hero. 10/7/25 iirc, with most of the kills gained early and most of the deaths gained late. It's great to be able to see his portrait pop up on a random and not be so quick to find the repick button.
     
  6. hamza_tm

    hamza_tm Well-Known Member

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    Good analysis, I should point out that his nukes *do* get stronger after 8 (with his ulti) but the point you made is sound. Also you should mention the avalanche/toss combo: if you toss a unit that has *just* been avalanched, he takes double avalanche damage for a massive 900ish damage combo. You need to toss him within avalanche range of course (onto himself usually). Basically Q then W the enemy to himself immediately after.
     
  7. wafflesomd

    wafflesomd New Member

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    Tiny isn't a good ganker. You had to be playing against some pretty bad people if it was working.

    I consider him to be a better version of sven. Grab scepter, MoM, blink, heart, and bkb. Generally when my group plays him he is our main carry. He works really well with troll's ult.

    Our team comp with tiny in is usually, tiny, troll, omni, keeper, and jakiro. Lane with keeper so he can replenish your mana and you can spam your Q. You should be able to get some pretty early kills. Omni ult will basically make you invicible during fights so you don't have to worry about MoM damage increase. His attack damage + cleave is just ridiculous.

    I had a good game with him the other day with that team comp. Near the end it's almost impossible to stop tiny from nuking your rax and towers in a few blows with MoM and trolls ult.
     
  8. hamza_tm

    hamza_tm Well-Known Member

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    You can play tiny however you like for sure, if you built him around carrying that can work out fine. Suggesting a build for him is one thing but saying he isn't a good ganker simply isn't true. An almost 900 damage stun nuke at level 8, not to be sniffed at.

    Are you talking about pubs or organised games by the way? At first I assumed you meant very high skill opponents as you mention not playing against bad players, but you are probably referring to decent pubs? Because that team composition (while fine if you stack in medium skill pubs) would not work against a decent team (or higher skill pubs) as there's no way you can decently lane that to effectiveness. Plus omni ult during teamfight is easy to counter, you have exactly two stuns, neither of which is 100% reliable (not sure about Trolls ranged axes but no big difference anyway)

    I've seen professional teams play tiny and yes, they gank with him, even a team that had tiny as their only carry, they ganked and later on transitioned into carry late game with an aghas (they had magnus buff on him too, that was so fun to watch him two hit raxes). So yeah safe to say he is a good ganker.

    Sven is a good ganker too btw. AOE high damage stun and natural non-squishiness (watch professional games to see him in action). You can play him as a carry but he is very mediocre late game in that regard (regarding high skill level, not, as you put it quite well, "against some pretty bad people" where MoM Sven can destroy games quite easily).

    Just my observations :)
     
    Last edited: 30 Jan 2013
  9. Sloth

    Sloth #yolo #swag

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    I forgot about the ult increasing!

    About the toss/avalance, I wasn't 100% on it and didn't want to say anything. I tried it but couldn't really get a situation where it was clearly more damage from the avalanche and not another source. Thanks for explaining that!

    "Pretty bad" is a fairly relative term, but it was a Very High game. I think it's safe to say that even on the lower end of VH the players ending up there have a good idea of what they're doing.

    That's more or less my impression. Even if you intend to carry later game, around level 8-9 you have so much item-independent damage that you may as well take advantage of it.
     
  10. soviet_

    soviet_ Bantros

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    No, he's a fantastic ganker.
     
  11. VipersGratitude

    VipersGratitude Well-Known Member

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    I've had this for a while but haven't played it because it's perplexing. I did try to look up a few videos but they were full of impenetrable terminology.

    So, any tips for a beginner on how to figure out how the game works?
     
  12. hamza_tm

    hamza_tm Well-Known Member

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    Sure, head on over to purgegamers.com and check out the guide for new players!

    It's called Welcome to Dota, You suck! or something like that.

    It really is a rewarding game once you get a grasp of it, and for most people its so good that no matter how much you play it, the only time you will get bored is when you leave gaming for good. Its not something like CoD where you will get bored as soon as the next version comes out, but the strategic mind bending awesomeness is so awesomely awesome words cannot explain it ;)

    There is a pretty easy to use hero called Viper btw, you may wanna try out your namesake!
     
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  13. Jester_612

    Jester_612 "Jammy..."

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    I had a look at it at the weekend, didn't get anything.

    I know in BF3 the loadouts are a game of rock, paper, scissors, but this game looked more like rock, paper, scissors, lizard, spock. Is that a fair way to characterise a core ethos of configurations?
     
  14. hamza_tm

    hamza_tm Well-Known Member

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    You sure this is the correct thread for that post? :D

    If yes, and by loadouts you mean item builds (kind of a funny comparison to BF3 as they are entities of quite a dissimilar purpose by definition), then as a beginner every single hero has a default item build already built in, just follow the items shown.

    If you mean hero choices, and those kinds of counters, that stuff just comes with time. There are excellent guides available to walk you through your first few games and show you the ropes. A friend is even better. In general you have late-game heroes, early-game heroes, mid-game heroes, heroes that are strong all game but are utility based, pushing heroes, turtling (anti-push) heroes (some fit into multiple categories), so making an analysis with rock paper scissors doesn't really make sense.
     
  15. Jester_612

    Jester_612 "Jammy..."

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    Definitely sure.

    Well card games, there are different types, but also variations of a type, poker for instance. What I wanted was getting a concise description of the underpinning idea for the gameplay mechanics, all games have them (BF3 is chess and rock paper scissors) and it's the first step to take in grasping everything about it.

    I thought it was like rps lizard spock because of a few other posts I caught an eye of before, talking about problems with dealing with a hero, and so on.
     
  16. Sloth

    Sloth #yolo #swag

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    If you simplify things quite a bit it does have a sort of "rock paper scissors" aspect to it, as pretty much any strategy game does.

    Each hero has different abilities which make them all have unique strengths and weaknesses. Some are inherently better or worse against others one on one. Out of ~100 or whatever heroes you've got quite a few match ups. Additionally, each hero can "equip" up to six items (out of a list of ~100 items) which alter their stats or grant additional abilities to further define their capabilities. And finally, each time consists of five heroes. This makes for an immense amount of combinations and match up where there may not be a clear advantage for either team at the start.

    A key aspect of Dota, though, is that you can see what heroes your opponents have and what items they're buying. It's designed to make a more adaptive gameplay where each team is constantly trying to out smart the enemy. With matches lasting 30-60 minutes this is essential to keep a winner from being defined at the start simply by hero picks.
     
  17. Jester_612

    Jester_612 "Jammy..."

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    Ok, thanks. So now I see it like American Football, as a team you'll want to make 'plays'. Like I saw a player with wisp at the beginning of the game, not really doing much other than healing as I could see. After awhile they became the killing machine, I guess down to buying items as the game progressed, the other thing being that their team was losing for the first 6-10 minuets, which was turned around.

    So with American Football you have these very rigid roles for players, does that crossover, or does diversification (jack of all trades) payoff? Also I didn't notice outer towers having a large impact on progress on play, I think I'm missing something with that.

    Edit-looking up "ganking"
     
    Last edited: 13 Feb 2013
  18. Sloth

    Sloth #yolo #swag

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    That's not a bad comparison imo. Much like American Football there's the option to change your strategy as the game progresses to counter what your opponents are doing.

    Due to the impact of items, and even the impact of which skills you level first, each hero does have quite a few options open to them, some more than others. Everything comes down to what will be best for your team. That Wisp's change is for exactly the reason you said: items. At the start of the game with no items it's more effective to use non-scaling "support" abilities and playstyles, but with more gold and items it can use its attack speed boosting ability to scale quite well for high damage output. While each hero can typically be played differently there are typical team compositions. Teams will typically want a "carry", "supports" a "mid", "initiator" and all sorts of other terms, those are a bit more rigid as it's harder to win with a team of five heroes playing as "carries", for example.

    Each "tier" of towers effectively lose value as they get farther from their team's respective bases. The outermost ones are called "tier 1" towers and are most important in the early game. They make it hard for a low level hero to get past enemy lines, basically. As the game progresses it naturally becomes easier to destroy them and it's fairly typical for all six tier 1 towers to be destroyed by the end of a game. Their big impact early on is gold: destroying them earlier can provide more income and set up your team to be better equipped for destroying other tier 1's, or pushing to the strategically more valuable "tier 2" towers.

    "Ganking" is the term for killing off heroes selectively. It typically involves catching one or two heroes off guard with overwhelming force. It provides gold and experience, but importantly is detrimental to the enemy killed. That's where the selective part comes in, enemy heroes who are the biggest threats are typically targeted for "ganks" but any hero may be ganked if the opportunity presents itself. This is opposed to "team fights" which are group battles consisting of 4-5 heroes from each team slugging it out.
     
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  19. hamza_tm

    hamza_tm Well-Known Member

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    That's actually an excellent summary Sloth, a good read!

    Yes, making plays is pretty much it. It's a game of decision making, the execution of the decisions can be learnt and mastered in a day, but working out what exactly to do in different situations takes a lot more.

    Every hero has a default role, something it is best at. But if you want to, due to the way you level up skills or the items you choose to buy, you can make any hero do anything eventually. But if you try and make a hero do 'something it is not best at', it will do it much more poorly than another hero well suited to that.

    Some heroes are actually by definition diverse - they can do almost any role. But perhaps not as good as a hero more dedicated to a specific role. A jack of all trades in dota will most likely be a master of just a few.
     
  20. Jester_612

    Jester_612 "Jammy..."

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    Thanks, for all that, I've ran out of questions... for now.

    Re-"ganking" just heard it said on YouTube whilst a BF3 player, played Chivalry - lol
     

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