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E.U: Leave or Stay? Your thoughts.

Discussion in 'Serious' started by TheBlackSwordsMan, 22 Feb 2016.

  1. Archtronics

    Archtronics Minimodder

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    The Uk has been destabilising foreign country's for its own gain since the start of the British empire. I should imagine by now it's a part of the "British way of doing things" so folks don't question it.

    I'm leaning towards voting out atm, my concerns being the resilience of the EU economy and the ridiculous rules they have gradually imposed on agriculture.
     
  2. RedFlames

    RedFlames ...is not a Belgian football team

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    The last 6 or so haven't been that great...

    Though in every case they were only 'fixing the mess they inherited'...

     
  3. hyperion

    hyperion Minimodder

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    Aha, that's must be why every leader of the US and UK these days apparently needs to bomb some part of the Middle East because the previous one just didn't get the job done. There is still some Middle East left.
     
  4. StingLikeABee

    StingLikeABee What's a Dremel?

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    Sorry, playing catchup on the thread. I can't remember the last Prime Minister that I actually felt had a sterling or stand out good term of office. Bit deflating when you think about it.


    It still doesn't make the other members of the coalition any less complicit though. Some of these countries in the coalition have been making a very good return on the instability of the Middle East too, with arms sales and other nefarious dealings. It's much too simplistic to try and apportion the bulk of the blame on the US and UK alone. The Middle East has been unstable since before we were all born and western interference has done nothing to make it any more stable.
     
  5. theshadow2001

    theshadow2001 [DELETE] means [DELETE]

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    Yes they were all complicit, but you can't think that Iceland with its two dudes out there have the same sort of culpability as the US and Britain who were both the instigators and main actors in Iraq. Without the US at least no one else would have been out there.

    What I was implying is that if centre-ish leaders in power took a bit more of a right wing stance (without going nuts) on things like immigration, refugees etc. as per the wants of their electorate then there would be no need to vote for UKIP or whatever regional equivalent.
     
  6. StingLikeABee

    StingLikeABee What's a Dremel?

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    I wouldn't try to argue that the US weren't the instigators because it's obvious to anyone that they were. However, that doesn't and shouldn't absolve the coalition members. If the wars were unjust, then all who supported them, either indirectly or directly with boots on the ground are every bit as culpable too. It wasn't just about sending troops though, as I mentioned in my last post.
     
  7. javaman

    javaman May irritate Eyes

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    Made me thing of the pile of sand Paradox, if you remove one grain of sand from a pile at what point is it no long a pile. If you bomb the Middle east and all people come here, at what point do we live in the middle east :worried:
     
  8. StingLikeABee

    StingLikeABee What's a Dremel?

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    As background to the seemingly never ending Middle East crisis and the west's interference;


    France -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_support_for_Iraq_during_the_Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_war
    https://mises.org/blog/long-history-french-military-intervention-middle-east-and-africa

    Germany -
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/daniel-wagner/germanys-arms-sales-and-t_b_3803403.html

    USSR
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union_and_the_Arab–Israeli_conflict
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet–Afghan_War

    Ukraine & Belgium (with the above mentioned)
    http://www.nonproliferation.eu/web/documents/other/samperlofreeman82324e9ea9f3af411.pdf

    The Middle East is a strategically important and resource abundant region. The above examples display that the US and UK were not alone in exploiting the region for their own benefit. If we really knew the bigger picture I would be willing to bet that every single country within the EU has taken some benefits from the crisis in the Middle East. The Iraq and Afghanistan wars benefitted more than just the US and UK, that is why there was a coalition and they are all complicit and share culpability equally. As I said, on the two occasions where out and out war was declared, the US were the driving force. It didn't stop other countries being able to exploit that though for their own benefit.

    The Middle East is one problem the West is never going to be able to resolve. The problems have to be resolved by the people of the Middle East. History has shown that time and time again, but we see politicians falling into the same traps time and time again.

    Having said all that, I do believe that ISIS has to be tackled militarily as we cannot hope to break them any other way. Their messed up ideology leaves no room for debate or discussion, so military intervention is all we have to fight their hatred.
     
  9. StingLikeABee

    StingLikeABee What's a Dremel?

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    So has France, the USSR, the US, the Netherlands, Germany, Belgium and just about every other country that could muster a decent intelligence service and armed forces to back them up. We aren't unique in our colonial ambitions by any measure.

    The Euro is a failed experiment, I'm glad we missed that bullet. The silly directives and rules that the EU impose on its member states sometime beggars belief. Also, some of these directives and rules are drawn up after spending vast masses of money on research, staffing costs etc., all at our expense as EU members.
     
    Last edited: 16 Mar 2016
  10. theshadow2001

    theshadow2001 [DELETE] means [DELETE]

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    We are just arguing over irrelevant degrees of magnitude. Ultimately the US and Britain started the war in Iraq. Did other nations support them? Yes. Does that change the fact that if Britain and America hadn't dicked about in the middle east in recent years its unlikely much of the current refugee crisis and ISIS based terror attacks would have occurred? No.
     
  11. StingLikeABee

    StingLikeABee What's a Dremel?

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    Again a much too simplistic perspective on a complex situation. Sure the US and UK compounded the existing problems but the problems existed before their actions. As I said, the Middle East has been a problem since before we were even born.
     
  12. walle

    walle Minimodder

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    The European powers of England and France have been meddling in the Middle East since medieval times (the Germans, or rather the Teutonic Order, were busy in eastern Europe at the time, in fact; they had been invited to deal with the pagans there but that's another story).

    Note
    Not invited by the pagans themselves of course but by the nobility and together with the blessings of the pope they were given a carte blanche.

    Fast forward to modern times...
    That the United States would move in to fill the power vacuum after England lost its Empire should come as no surprise. It's business as usual.
     
  13. Corky42

    Corky42 Where's walle?

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    Yea but at least nowadays our politicians are a lot more subtle about it, well most of the time they're and maybe not to everyone but they're getting better, we have to invade/bomb/fight/kill because of WMD's, the terrorists, or to keep our country safe. :worried:
     
  14. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    The US and UK hugely compounded the problem, and the result of that is now washing onto the Mediterranean shores.
     
  15. StingLikeABee

    StingLikeABee What's a Dremel?

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    And so did every other nation that supported the wars, either directly or indirectly. So too did the nations that allowed the arms dealers to make such vast profits from their trade in the Middle East. Let's not forget the nations that showed their only real interest in the Middle East was the natural resources the area has. I'm all for apportioning blame where blame is due but to ignore the bigger picture and blame the situation on the UK and US alone is shortsighted in my opinion. I'm not trying to play down the role the US and UK had in destabilising the region, rather I'm trying to play up the role other nations had in this. I also think it would be wrong to suggest that what has been happening over the years could not directly influence what is happening now. Save some of your scorn for every nation that has blood on it's hands, not just the "key" players.
     
  16. Corky42

    Corky42 Where's walle?

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    Can anyone explain to me why the recent resignation of Iain Duncan Smith is being seen by some commentators in the media as an attack against the "In" side, i listened to his interview on the Andrew Marr show and that wasn't the impression i got, if anything it seemed like the IN OUT vote was the last thing on his mind.
     
  17. julianmartin

    julianmartin resident cyborg.

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    Whilst I am firmly in the camp that think it has nothing to do with it, the general accusation is that once the referendum goes through, an assumed IN win would mean all the OUT supporters would be shed from the cabinet and senior positions for not supporting the party. IDS would be one of them. If he bails now, he can still fit into a Bojo led government which is the assumption of what happens next if the OUT vote wins.

    Convoluted and preposterous if you ask me. One of my close friends worked with him at the CSJ and I also know the son of IDS, I very much believe this is because IDS truly had enough with the destructions to welfare.
     
  18. StingLikeABee

    StingLikeABee What's a Dremel?

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    One thing the IDS resignation and also the latest budget has highlighted, I think, is that the Conservative Party is still the same old party that rewards the rich and damns the poor. Whether we leave the EU or not, the poorest people in the UK are still going to be facing more years of hurt inflicted by the Tories. I'm all for living within our means as a nation but not when it's the poorest who end up losing the most (proportionally) and the richest who gain the most.

    I'm really hoping the referendum will spark another general election, which can happen if a vote of no confidence is passed with a majority in the House of Commons. Wishful thinking but I'd love to see us exit the EU and then not have to wait till 2020 for the chance to see a new government too.
     
  19. julianmartin

    julianmartin resident cyborg.

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    That doesn't really hold water when all the stats show there is less relative poverty and more people in employment. It's the classic fallacy that Thatcher took on during her last PMQs from ex Liberal leader Sir Simon Hughes [albeit in a somewhat different context]:

    When people talk about closing the gap, it always comes down to making the rich less rich rather than the poor richer. I am not in agreement that the cuts Osborne wishes to deliver should come from welfare whilst the top tax bracket get a cut, but Labour hold a lot of responsibility in how ineffective IDS' single benefit mechanism has been - the original drafts were genuinely something to be proud of. The debates over the details are what eroded it.
     
    Last edited: 21 Mar 2016
  20. StingLikeABee

    StingLikeABee What's a Dremel?

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    So your rebuttal is that more people are in employment, OK then. So why are so many reliant on working tax credits just in order to make ends meet? The reasons, low pay and zero hour contracts spring to mind there. Increased employment is great but when it's employment that means people are often very little or no better off, indeed the poor keep getting poorer. The cost of living has increased but wages and in work benefits that are pretty much a necessity aren't increasing in line with this. There are many people living in the UK right now who have to struggle every week just to keep their heads above water, all the while the rich have indeed got richer.

    I could show you statistics that contradict your stats, it all depends who commissioned those stats and for what purpose they were generated. I live and work in a working class area and I see the effects of every single policy change that affects my community and its residents, I much prefer that qualitative evidence than half cooked stats.
     

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