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E.U: Leave or Stay? Your thoughts.

Discussion in 'Serious' started by TheBlackSwordsMan, 22 Feb 2016.

  1. julianmartin

    julianmartin resident cyborg.

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    You mean anecdotal, not qualitative.

    Low wage is an issue/economic symptom across most western states right now, it's not a tory party policy.
     
  2. StingLikeABee

    StingLikeABee What's a Dremel?

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    But it has been suggested by a top Tory member (IDS) that existing policy is to hurt the non-Tory voters in the budgets and to appease the Tory voters. In other words, look after the wealthy and to hell with the poor. Budget after budget has shown this to be true. The only time the poor have not been hit in the pocket is when the Tory government has been forced to back down. It was said by some reporter today that IDS believes that the Tories are in danger of creating a two tier country, I think they already have.

    As for Tory policies on low wages, the living wage coming in soon is an absolute joke. They are giving with one hand but then taking away with the other by means of changes to a host of in work benefits that people are reliant on through no fault of their own. They will not force businesses in the UK to pay a true living wage, despite this benefitting the welfare budget and the country as a whole, the question there is why the hell not?
     
    Last edited: 21 Mar 2016
  3. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    That's how I read it.

    As for increased employment, it is a fact that most of this is in low-paid jobs. These don't contribute to taxes and not much to economic growth. In contrast the US --which started off in much the same situation-- has seen some serious investment in public works by the government and we see an increase in relatively better paid jobs and twice the economic growth.

    As for the rich-poor divide: rich people getting richer does not actually help the economy. The very wealthy don't spend their money; they hoard it. The trickle down theory is a myth. Economic growth lies in lower- and middle-class prosperity.

    My concern is that Osborne could propose a cut in disability benefits at the same time as lowering taxes for the middle classes and really not appreciate how this would be perceived. There is some serious disconnect going on in the guy (and the PM). Similarly there seems to be a pathological denial of the state of the NHS. I appreciate that reducing the deficit is a Good Thing, but the self-imposed target of a £10 billion surplus by 2020 is arbitrary, highly unrealistic and makes no economic sense whatsoever.
     
  4. StingLikeABee

    StingLikeABee What's a Dremel?

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    No I meant qualitative evidence, I work for a social enterprise dealing with a whole range of social and economic issues in my community and also conduct quantitative and qualitative research for strategic planning and reporting.
     
  5. StingLikeABee

    StingLikeABee What's a Dremel?

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    This I agree with very much. If we want to start seeing a real recovery, the lower and middle earners need to have more disposable income to be able to save, spend and invest.


    I often wonder if our children will be the last to enjoy the NHS as a public service?
     
  6. Corky42

    Corky42 Where's walle?

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    Just playing devils advocate but while your correct when you say relative poverty is decreasing, absolute poverty is increasing, and the employment figures are also very dubious.
     
  7. Kovoet

    Kovoet What's a Dremel?

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    I have looked in Harrow now for 15 years. I remember when I arrived how the town centre had all the shop's you wanted and the centre was clean.
    Now all you have is pound shops, mobile phone shops, all types of restaurant's. Shops closing down and opening up in a regular basis. Drugs deals done in broad daylight, police sirens going off a regular basis, police don't even come out to shoplifting offences anymore. School's in the area besides Harrow on the hill about ten percent of the kids are white and half of them are from easrten Europe. Harrow has become so run down and dirty.
    So has the influx of migrants helped in my area? The answer is definite no, it has had a negative result.
    Just in my street alone last year there were over 20 break ins. Have a Muslim gym in the area where the local Muslims in the area who have been here for a while will beut let there kids attend it because of the brain washing going on in it.
    This government cannot control themselves never mind the country and you can't Damn well fart without asking if its against the health and safety rules stipulated by the euro union.
    We definitely need to get out, like my parents said to me before I moved here they would never come back to the U.K. As they said it died in the second world war. There is no patriotism left in the U.K..

    Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk
     
  8. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    I'm not sure how you connect the general increase in poverty and economic decline in Harrow with an increase in immigrants from Eastern Europe, or membership of the EU, or patriotism (whatever that means). I'd say it has more to do with the government's aggressive austerity policies aimed at deficit reduction with a complete disregard for economic stimulus. Except for inadequate simplistic ideas that if you exempt big business from taxes they will invest in the UK --which is a total fallacy. Business invests where there is economic prosperity and stability, and right now the UK doesn't look that attractive, especially with the Brexit looming.

    In order for the UK to leave the EU unscathed, it has to cut a good trade deal with the EU, adopted a raft of tax cuts and deregulation measures, and continue to allow a high level of immigration from the EU. This will take years of negotiation with a EU that frankly will have its own problems and will be pissed at the UK, and which meanwhile will deter foreign investors and limit the profits of mainstream corporations that trade with the rest of the EU.

    This government is running the country into the ground on some arbitrary notion not supported by any economist that the UK should be £10 billion in surplus by 2015 2020, which was never, ever going to happen. Then it decides to hold a Brexit referendum at economically the worst time possible. Instead of aggressively reducing debt by cannibalising public spending and creating further economic uncertainty with the Brexit referendum, the government ought to look at creating a sense of economic stability and increasing GDP through stimulating the economy from the ground up --but that takes real economic competence, not the secondary school economics of Osborne.

    If the UK leaves the EU, be prepared for economic collapse and a two-tier society. You haven't seen anything yet.
     
    Last edited: 22 Mar 2016
  9. Kovoet

    Kovoet What's a Dremel?

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    Difference you have in the community is that you have 12 people living in a household paying cheap rent but the money they earning is not been spent in the U.K. But found out of the country. It can only last so long the way things are happening now. When everything comes crashing down in the U.K. All the migrants up and leave the country and your burn and bred british person is left with the crap that has been left behind. I went to a little town in Belgium recently Mechelen, not been there for years. You see the changes there as well but not for the good either.

    Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk
     
  10. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    Blame governmental economic policy, which creates low-paid, unskilled jobs that attracts Central European immigrants, rather than well-paid skilled jobs that the locals can benefit from (and as an aside: I can assure you that their rent is not so cheap. Why else would twelve people live in a house built for a family of four?) .

    The point is this: while people are blaming immigrants, the EU and lack of patriotism, they are not trying to understand why this country really is in such a mess. And that is pretty much a combination of uncontrolled private sector banking crashing the worldwide economy followed by a Conservative government which has only a tenuous grasp on economics chasing some ideological fetish of budget surplus over the economic cliff.

    Instead of challenging government, people pick on a bunch of poor immigrants down the road --like their upping sticks and going home is going to make all the difference to your high street and your standards of living. Like trying to resurrect the dream of the good old days of British Empire and Commonwealth allows us to ignore the realities of the current global economy.

    It's all distraction. The government is now at a point where it thinks it can introduce benefit cuts for the disabled at the same time as tax breaks to high earners and nobody will have an issue with that. As it turns out, people did, but the important point is: Osborne and Cameron genuinely thought they wouldn't, and that says something pretty damning about how they perceive the general public.

    The current government thinks we're a bunch of rubes. Morons. Village idiots. Unless we put away the torches and pitchforks and stop blaming 'them foreigners' and really show some bloody insight into our economic situation and how the government is mishandling it, we will continue to get screwed over.
     
    Last edited: 22 Mar 2016
  11. Kovoet

    Kovoet What's a Dremel?

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  12. Vault-Tec

    Vault-Tec Green Plastic Watering Can

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    I couldn't agree more.

    Mind you I would be fooling myself if I did not see it coming. Banks **** up taking billions with them, where can you get it from? Oh I know ! let's take it from the poor and the sick !

    I must say I have been pleasantly surprised at the reaction to it, though. I really thought we'd see an outbreak of "Took er jerbs !" but it's been quite the opposite, even from the most hardened trolls on sites like Yahoo and Huffington Post.
     
  13. Harlequin

    Harlequin Modder

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    daesh are again showing they support BREXIT
     
  14. javaman

    javaman May irritate Eyes

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    The cynic in me askes Is it in Cameron's interest to fix the economy or to keep it hobbled?
    Osbourne can't be that far out of touch and if he was someone in the party would happily sacrifice him. I can only think of a handful of reasons to stick to Austerity
    A) it works (No evidence)
    B) They're saying one thing and doing another (I suspect and expect this as the true course)
    C) He's clueless (I don't believe otherwise he would be removed)
    D) there's a third purpose beyond the economy (Fear of the economy to pish another agenda)
     
  15. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    Same as the old UK. Who says the UK is not a trend setter?

    More distraction. It's not the terrorists, like it's not the immigrants. It's the economy, and how the government chooses to handle it.

    It's B, C and D.

    B: the government doesn't really know what it is doing, but wants to maintain the impression that it does, and
    C: Osborne is clueless, but so is the guy appointing him*. This is more about shared ideology and interests than about whether Osborne is the most competent person for the job. Because:
    D: Underneath it all, the purpose of the Conservatives is to stay in power. If appearing to be saving the economy does that, they'll appear to be saving it. If maintaining fear of an imminent economic downturn will do it, they'll maintain a fear of an imminent economic downturn. Preferably both at the same time. Classic abuse dynamic: "I'm only hurting you for your own good. If you leave me, you'll be out there on your own, and then you'll be really sorry". And like most abusers, they actually genuinely believe it.

    The government keeps us beaten down by hardship, in fear of the future, too preoccupied with basic survival for us to think, realise that we're being abused and leave (i.e. vote them out).


    * One of the big things that bothers me about Cameron --and Osborne-- is that he appears to me like a guy who is operating above his level. He just does not seem that intelligent. I don't agree with a some of his political views, but Boris Johnson, for instance, strikes me as intelligent. Like he could reflect on things and change tack if required, rather than cling to ideology in white-knuckled panic. And say what you will about Margaret Thatcher, but that woman was sharp, and again able to take on board the reality of a situation rather than cling to wishful ideology.
     
    Last edited: 22 Mar 2016
  16. StingLikeABee

    StingLikeABee What's a Dremel?

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    One thing I hear very often at work from the people who are hurting the most due to the Tories and their austerity policies is that if those politicians were forced to walk in their shoes for just a week, things would be vastly different. This I wholeheartedly agree with.

    I'd even go so far as to make it a condition of a cabinet minister that they go out into the respective fields they are supposed to represent, to see life on the sharp end of their decision making. I'd take it even further still though and make it compulsory that any MP who has not experienced life in the real world would have to go and experience that life before they take up office. Watch how many MPs would not run for re-election and how many would start changing their attitudes to the populace they are supposed to be representing.

    In the social enterprise I work for, we expect everyone to have personal experiences in the issues they are working to address, the same applies for me as MD as it does everyone else, even including our volunteers. Maybe if our government followed the same model we wouldn't be in the mire as we are now.

    There are just too many MPs who were born into money, have never held a real job or been immersed in real life, yet they are making decisions for those of us who are in the real world, weren't born into money and have to work damned hard to provide for our families.

    Nexxo I agree with the point you made regarding Osborne and Cameron. How the hell they thought it would be acceptable, in any economic climate let alone one of Tory imposed austerity, to hit the most vulnerable and to provide perks for the least vulnerable beggars belief!
     
    Last edited: 22 Mar 2016
  17. Harlequin

    Harlequin Modder

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    Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war: neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But after all it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or fascist dictorship, or a parliament or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peace makers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”
     
  18. RedFlames

    RedFlames ...is not a Belgian football team

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    Easy, they know their audience - ensure the bulk of the pain falls those who'd never vote for them anyway [typically the younger generations, low income earners], whilst keeping the areas who do typically vote Conservative [older generations and high-income earners] sweet.

    IDS pretty much said as much when he resigned - rather than kick pensioners in the nuts they instead elected to kick the disabled in the nuts a second time because pensioners typically vote Conservative.
     
  19. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    I think that even that is not enough. They'll just turn it into a camping trip, a kind of macho game in which they'll put up with some hardship for a few weeks to have some interesting stories to tell their mates later in the House of Commons (subsidised) bar. They'll be all positive and can-do and go: "See, it's not that bad, once you put your mind to it. You can survive".

    No. What they need to experience is the gut-wrenching, soul-deadening despair of things not only being hard, but knowing that it will never get any better. Knowing that no matter how hard you try, there is no escape; that this is your life, forever. No hope. No dreams. Nothing to look forward to but daily struggle for survival as you get older and weaker, while watching people on TV living in unimaginable privileged wealth.

    That is pretty hard to do. So I think they need at least three to six months of this, away from their wealthy family and friends. No respite; no breaks, and really get a small taste of the hopelessness and despair.
     
  20. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    The pensioners (and high earners) need to realise that tomorrow they, or their children, can be the disabled.

    I am in the 40% tax bracket. This budget would have benefitted me fine. But apart from the moral point of view that I rather forfeit £400,-- ish a year than a disabled person having to forfeit £3500,-- a year, I know that tomorrow I could be one of the disabled. All that has to happen is a car side-swiping me in traffic; an unfortunate fall down a stairs (not even a very tall one), a hitherto undiscovered aneurysm going pop in my head, or late-onset MS coming out of nowhere and tearing down my CNS. I've seen plenty of patients in my job whose life was ruined, just like that, without warning.

    We are all potentially disabled, homeless, unemployed, mentally ill. Life is fragile and unpredictable like that. If we don't look after the weakest and most underprivileged in our society, we are not looking after ourselves.
     
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