E.U: Leave or Stay? Your thoughts.

My point is that people do not become fully aware of their own culture (as a relative construct) until they are exposed to another. In a similar way they become more aware of how their own language is a construct of their culture and shapes their worldview when exposed to other languages.

It certainly is shaped by, and shapes it.

Language is a medium for expression. It is a communication tool. It is an aspect of culture. It is a framework for thinking. It is all of these things.

 

"You tell them!" means getting people to feel that he speaks for them, but "You tell us!" means getting people to do what he wants them to. He has achieved some of that, but he is not taking it further (beyond getting them to vote "OUT").

Let me put it this way: EU apparatchiks may well be in full-on revenge mode for the UK taking its dick (Farage) out and pissing on their dreams, but the whole world economy has been in trouble well before Brexit and those running the show in Germany and France realise very well that financial and job security of those countries relies for a good part on keeping good trade relationships with the UK. The UK economy has been hit hard over the last days, but so has the EU's. In that respect Farage was not entirely wrong: although the EU does not need the UK more than the UK needs the EU, they certainly need each other. In the end, money wins out.

Instead of using good media exposure for just insulting people, he should have using it to seek alliances with other EU (and EEA) countries who are unhappy with the present EU leadership and its dogmas. After all the UK is not alone in its Eurosceptic feelings. He could have said something along the lines of: "Look, European cooperation is fundamentally a good idea but should be based on sovereign countries voluntarily cooperating on the basis of shared economic interest, on their own mutually agreed terms not imposed from above by some dogmatic bureaucratic machinery. That's our vision. Join us. We're open for business, are you?".

But he didn't; he just ranted about the EU being in denial and insulted a bunch of people and then ran out of ideas and out of steam. It seemed to me an act more informed by self-gratification than strategic thinking about how he could use this opportunity to start building alliances with other Eurosceptic countries and create a movement away from the EU towards his vision (if he has one at all) of a libertarian common market of sovereign states.

People need to have something to get behind that is beyond just unfocused discontent with how things are. A leader should offer that.

Perhaps you're right and he is just calculatedly waiting for the Conservatives to finish screwing up totally before stepping in, but as I said, there was too much egocentric psychodrama and too little substance in his speech for me to get the impression that he can think at that level.

That vote was just rebellion. Now it's over and has run out of direction and momentum. The Conservatives are too stupid to see that. If they had stepped in now and offered a Brexit plan, any plan at all, the electorate would have swallowed it.

You're probably right, but people are notoriously stupid and will just continue to blame foreigners, or the EU, or big business. Already some people are referring to the uncertainty in the markets, the dropping Pound and BoE's interventions as "Project Fear 2", a deliberate mass manipulation by business to scare people into remaining.

 

I agree, they're are all over the place....



They probably swallow their toothpaste.

Fact is, you can walk out your from door and talk/bribe any person into speaking on camera these days, generation selife, the gift that keeps on giving.

 

What do we think of her,

I am warming to her, she has a strong sense of purpose / authority , compos mentis

She seems to be the only legit possibility.

Nice candidacy speech.

She is going to have a huge work load

 

The problem is that no-one on any side of this said before the vote that it would be "just advisory" and would be ignored. If parliament voted to ignore the result it would have very ugly consequences and rather poison the well for a very long time.

I don't want to exit, but I don't think telling people, "You voted, but you were wrong so you can get lost" is a good idea.

 

Neither side reminded people, but the terms were clearly defined at the outset. When did this suddenly change and become a binding issue?

Everybody assumes that there would be an outcry but I am not so sure. It seems to me many people can't even articulate why they voted one way or another and don't even understand what they voted on. Most people don't even give a **** anymore.

This is not: "You voted wrong" but "Thanks for your opinion, we'll take it under advisement in how to proceed from here". Parties can then build their 2020 election manifesto around different versions of a new UK-EU relationship. For instance:
- UKIP can campaign on a total out, WTO rules;
- Conservatives can campaign for an EEA relationship;
- Lib Dems can campaign for continued membership of the EU
- Labour can campaign for whatever... once it sorts itself out.

All parties set out their vision and PLAN for a future relationship with Europe, and the electorate knows what it is voting for, not just against. All parties are accountable for achieving the promises they make; no promising unicorns in the assumption the opposing party will come up with a plan to make unicorns happen, as was the case in this referendum.

It is the only sane thing to do right now, and the only democratic one. The only reason why this is still going on is because the Conservatives are desperately trying to figure out how they can bail out of this Brexit disaster while still getting voted in, in 2020.

 

Well to be honest I don't think it would get us back in.

Labour may betrying for the prize of the worst opposition party in living memory (and yes it keeps getting worse) but they will have a certain base level support regardless.

The Lib Dems maybe will still suffering from making unrealistic commitments they didn't believe in when they knew they would only get into power in a coalition.

UKIP will wither. I predict their only MP will rejoin the conservatives as his politics are a million miles from Farage's. UKIP may survive by metamorphosing into a economically left-wing populist nationalist party attacking labour in the north. But I think they still look too much like golf club bar bores to really break through. I think the 2020 election result is probably decided already and at the moment I'm not sure that is a good thing.

 

Well, the EU Trade Commissioner has just reminded the UK that before trade talks can start, it has to first exit the EU completely over a process of up to two years. Once that is done it defaults to WTO trade rules while a different relationship is negotiated.

A Canada model can take up to 7 years, plus another 2 to get it ratified by all 27 member states of the EU.

A EEA membership can be done quicker because the UK is already harmonised with EU regulations, but will still take some years --and require ratification by the other member states.

Of course none of them will be able to cut their own bilateral deal with the UK in the meantime.

So the UK will look at 2 years of exit limbo, followed by 5-9 years in the WTO wilderness --where incidentally it also has no bilateral treaties, all having to be negotiated from scratch.

 

To be fair, I think you could pick a Romance language and be surprised by the similarities between it and English, in the same way that you find similarities between English and German. What languages did you study at school, as a matter of interest?

 

We can hope there might be a way back:
http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2016/06/economist-explains-27

but I think that unless an opposition party emerges, I can't see how a general election will work to stop exit.

 

It would in any case make it a somewhat more informed vote. People would know what they are voting for, there would be a plan and a government accountable for making good on the promises they made. I suspect that this accountability will give a whole different dimension to the campaign. You're less likely to promise unicorns if you're the one who is going to be responsible for delivering them.

 

She is the one who happily approves mass surveillance laws, so she has zero respect for your most basic rights.

 

Looking at Guardian live news, it seems that actual referendum and the implications became totally irrelevant in the light of implosion of both main political parties in UK ? One would have thought in a week it would become clearer what is UK actually aiming for. Instead of that all we got is Boris out of Conservative party leadership and who knows in the leadership, while Labour party has a full scale revolution going on. Who cares about the Brexit anymore... Clearly not the political parties or news.

Looking from outside, all i can say is "WTF is going on, are you crazy or what?".

 

Greetings!

Pretty much.
Just dont like the timing and the resulting FUD.

 

Be careful what you wish for we have FPTP.

If you have parties asking to be elected on an ignore the referendum, remain in the EU platform and probably one party asking for election on a leave platform then the leave party will only need 35-40% of the vote to get an absolute majority. Hello UKIP+/-DUP government.

Then even if the remain parties pulled it off from traditional party loyalties you have the main reason why they don't ignore the referendum outright anyway which is probable civil unrest...

 

Changing the subject completely, following the "wrong person accidentally copied-in" email there's been a lot of talk about Murdoch's influence over the Tory leadership campaign.

Thoughts?

Edit: That is the email from Gove's wife, yesterday I think. I didn't realise until now that another email was leaked today.

 

The future of the leadership of the main parties should probably be a whole other thread in itself.

There is suspicion that the emails were leaked by Gove's professor of the dark arts.

Dacre was also named (owner or the daily mail)

The media are important for two reasons:

1. To a lot of members there wont be much difference between gove and may.
May is the strongest leader in the race (and a likely closet brexiter)
Gove is an out and out outer
Media has the strongest influence when there isn't too much water between the candidates.

2. Media decide whether the bad things about them are exposed or the good things.
As the public or party membership people only hear things because the media tells them and if you only hear bad things then you wont form a good opinion of that person/party.

Even despite declining readership of papers they have a formidable number of reporters who find stories that when broken end up all over the internet and television media. So if they are only breaking bad your chances are slim.

 

It seems you're still coming at this from a what would Nexxo do perspective, Farage is a very different beast, not that you're a beast but you get what i mean. Farage has said many times he wants to destroy the European project, he's not interested in leadership, he just wants to stoke the fires that burn it all down.

Despite the fact that she's instrumental in the Snoopers Charter 3.0 and backed remaining in the EU i actual like her attitude, she seems to have the courage of her convictions, and doesn't seem to bothered to say it as it is.

Either way i can't see Mrs May or Mr Gove being good candidates for PM in the current atmosphere, one backed remain so will be plagued with accusations that she's not trying hard enough, and the other backed leave but stabbed two of his closest friends in the back and is in bed with the media.

In the end, and despite all the claims of how leaving the EU would give us more power and control, we're not going to have the power or control over who becomes PM for the next 4 years at such a vital time.

While they didn't say those exact words Mr Farage did appear on all national media outlets on the night questioning the legitimacy of of the referendum, how he would continue the fight to get Britain out of the EU, and he's also gone on record saying how "In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way." It seemed Mr Farage was happy to ignore a result he didn't want but is happy to accept one he did.