E.U: Leave or Stay? Your thoughts.

It's not a strategy that is in and of itself based in fear and hatred of others, though it can turn into that given certain conditions.

That only works as long balance is kept.

You can have plenty of diversity in homogeneity Nexxo. Having said that, you don't have to import say 500 000 French to enjoy French wine and cuisine, or a million Americans to enjoy McDonalds. It's called trade, and in trade you get plenty of diversity. Diversity of goods, diversity of ideas etc.

 

Every behaviour has a function. Including xenophobia.

Yeah, things work when they work, while they work, as long as they work.

Natural selection says no.

Dunno. Here in Birmingham we had to import a Polish guy to get some awesome sushi. It took an Austrian to run this awesome little restaurant just down the road. A bit further there's a Romanian who does really good traditional home cooking. We spent a night there with him and a New Zealander talking about how his father converted an old oil drum to a still to make plum brandy --while sampling some of the product. Another night we got a bit squiffy with a Greek friend of a local Italian restaurant owner talking about how he traveled around Australia advising vineyards how to make Greek Metaxa.

But yes, actually, in London it took about 400000 French (and many other nationalities) to get some decent restaurants. In Birmingham it took a sizeable Asian, Chinese, Caribbean, Middle Eastern and now Central European population to enjoy a rich and varied cuisine. Turns out a diverse population is a richly talented and resourceful population. Diversity is strength.

 

It all depends on context of diversity, but even in natural selection you will find diversity - though certain traits will change and right out disappear over time – such as blonde hair, brown hair, black hair, red hair, blue eyes, green eyes, grey eyes, brown eyes etc. None of these traits are really more advantageous than any of the other so I suspect they will be around for a while.

As I said it's not a requirement, nor is it a requirement to get decent food, well, maybe in England it is. The English are not known for their cuisine.

Ninja edit.

Maybe he spent some time in Japan, maybe he bought a cookbook.

 

Diversity is necessary for natural selection, is my point. Homogeneity is a weakness. Today's apparently functionless trait can become tomorrow's survival advantage.

The English wouldn't have known what an avocado is without Caribbean immigrants. Because they came, and brought their food, the English got a taste for it.

I suspect he tasted sushi, brought to him by an East Asian immigrant.

 

Sure, it's an us versus them situation but such a struggle can happen internally in a country with people separated by other factors such as age or class therefore it can't be xenophobic. It's not foreigner specific.

Look to Japan for actual xenephobia, where they can treat people differently and make assumptions about them based on the fact that they are foreign to the country. It is something that tends to be indeterminate of race and based purely on ones country of origin.

 

That was answered in my reply to you, although I'm guessing you missed it as it's on the previous page, however I'll summarise for you, EU Migrants, you know the group containing all those low skilled workers that we don't get to pick and choose, contribute more than non-EU migrants, you know the ones containing nothing but highly skilled workers we get to pick and choose.

IIRC EU migrants contribute £1.34 for every £1 taken from the public purse and non-EU migrants contribute £1.01 for every £1, although I'm guessing you'll come up with some wild and whacky theory on why that is and without a shred of evidence to boot.

 

Xenophobia is one expression of ingroup-outgroup dynamics, of which tribal competition is a more specific manifestation. 'Foreigner' is a relational construct. In the past, someone from the next tribe over was an foreigner. Someone from a different ethnic, cultural or religious group can be.

These relationships can also suddenly shift, as we found in former Yugoslavia.

We have all these different words for prejudicial discrimination, but underneath it's the same basic process. In Japan for instance, the indigenous Ainu are discriminated against just as much as foreign nationalities.

 

While the psychological etymology of xenophobia may be common to many forms of prejudice, its modern definition specifically relates to countries/nationalities. Once nationality is removed from a prejudice it is no longer xenophobia.

The fear of losing services, housing or whatever is not dependent on the country of origin of those who are perceived to use them all up. It's an incidental factor, as is their race and religion. Sure its tribalism but its not racist, sectarian or xenophobic.

 

I disagree. The definition of xenophobia includes fear of strangers, and that does not limit itself to nationalities.

Immigrants "taking our jobs/women/housing/places in schools/places in the NHS queue" is indeed tribalism, but "Hordes of Muslims/Turks/refugees will overrun our country is good ol' xenophobia and yes, racism.

Note how Vote Leave and UKIP campaign posters don't show any Central Europeans. Because they are basically White Catholics, and simply don't inspire as strong a xenophobic response as brown Muslims do. Syrian refugees and Turks had to be appropriated to make a case against the EU.

 

I'm using the oxford definition:

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/xenophobia

 

Merriam-Webster: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/xenophobia

In psychology the definition extends to a pathological phobia of strangers and hostile outlooks or violent actions toward individuals of other nationalities, cultures, ethnic groups, or even separate areas or neighbourhoods.

YMMV.

 

Yeah, the Americans don't exactly have a solid history when it comes to using English properly to be honest.

 

Let's look at its etymology then. Xenos: strange; phobia: fear.

Still, can't help but feeling we're arguing semantics.

 

Etymology merely offers clues to meaning rather than being what defines a word. Avocados for example have a testicular etymology, but they aren't in fact testicles. So lets not get too wrapped up in its etymological roots.

Yes, of course we are arguing semantics.

 

And so is Disequilibria when he argues that Farage's Breaking Point poster is not racist because it did not explicitly state that brown people were bad. But we all know what the poster meant, and what emotion it was meant to inspire, and of who.

 

Aren't you both arguing semantics?

Did the poster not intend to say refugees were bad. Do you have to be brown to be a refugee? Could Farage not have equally used a video of eastern Europeans speaking a Slavic language to get the same point across?

I think you are reading to much into it. You often accuse people of being stupid but you then attribute a greater amount of nuance to their thoughts than what reflects reality. Farage is just pointing at people and saying these people are why your life sucks, vote out. It doesn't really matter who he points the finger at.

 

Then why didn't he?

No, I think that arguing about whether it's racism, nationalism or xenophobia attributes a greater level of nuance to their thinking than what reflects reality. Farage points at brown refugees because they look proper "other", unlike the average white Polish plumber who could pass for a local. Non-EU brown refugees had to be appropriated to inspire fear of EU immigrants.

 

Because it's cheaper and easier to put a picture on the side of a truck than a full AV system.

Farage doesn't care who the others are and neither do his followers as is evidenced by the attacks on polish communities after the referendum.

The non-EU immigrants will be EU citizens once they obtain residence in an EU country.

 

It's because most EU immigrants don't look any different from Brits, so it's not as mediapathic. You'd have to hear them speak their own language, and that, as you say, would require a full AV system. So let's just pick some random foreigners who obviously look foreign (because brown) and make some tenuous link to the EU.

They don't care because they don't make a distinction. Anybody who is not white British is foreign.

Like I said: tenuous link.

 

That's what I've been saying.