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E.U: Leave or Stay? Your thoughts.

Discussion in 'Serious' started by TheBlackSwordsMan, 22 Feb 2016.

  1. theshadow2001

    theshadow2001 [DELETE] means [DELETE]

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  2. Disequilibria

    Disequilibria Minimodder

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    oops, very sorry, I must have missed you in all these giant posts

    The poll you show is people who intend to vote UKIP not the party in itself or its members.
    Do you not see the point where you say UKIP aren't a racist party then come back and say they are and vote leave aligned with them.

    (just as an aside what's the deal with Lib Dem intent voters and anti Semitism?)

    Racist campaign or campaign about sheer numbers.


    Members of UKIP that are no longer in the party, I could fish out racist issues about other parties.

    "at least prejudiced against other ethnicities" you mean racist then :hehe:

    That was a poll of people who intended to vote for UKIP not their members.

    Where in their ideology?

    No I argued that the measurement you're using would mean all parties are racist which is simply not the case, just that parties get actual racists as members are fire them accordingly



    You mean tearing up equality legislation.

    So Milton Friedman is a racist then?




    No that the population growth caused by migrants should be added to the figures as a matter of public policy planning because migrants have a higher birth rate than UK nationals. I think it's a stupid idea but not racist.

    If you think there are too many immigrants coming in as a net amount wouldn't it be the case that infrastructure would be used up to the point where capacity were marginal. Still not racist.

    If you've ever lived in a working class area and lived on a street with to a 2up2down terraced houses that has 5+ adult people crammed in you'd understand why you wouldn't want that. Romania is a very poor country and often when people come here for low skilled work they live many to the house and that causes more real problems than the supposed problem of simply being a Romanian.
    I question the evidence you give of being fundamentally racist.

    I'm pretty sure people voted for racist reasons including people originally holding signs like this post ref:
    [​IMG]

    However I don't think the numbers are as large as you think and that this country isn't a racist country.

    I would contest that it is too many people too quick not racism.

    But again people may feel it says something unpleasant but in reality people voted on a multitude of reasons not to do with immigration and even then immigration is not necessarily racist.
     
    Last edited: 5 Sep 2016
  3. Corky42

    Corky42 Where's walle?

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    That poll shows how the parties align with racist views, what you're suggesting is akin to saying people who support fox hunting are members of the RSPCA, or people who support whale hunting are members of Greenpeace, you do know how ridiculous that sounds right?

    Also where did you get the idea that i said "UKIP aren't a racist party then come back and say they are"?

    Well based on your logic that's not Lib Dem supporters so it means nothing. ;)
     
  4. Greentrident

    Greentrident Minimodder

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    Did anyone hear the guy on the radio at about 5:45 this evening - he was saying he thinks there'll be another vote on Brexit because "the bent southerners will think I'll lose too much money if we leave" and they'll decide to have another vote so we don't.
    He was then asked who he voted for normally - "I don't as I'm only here 3 months of the year - I'm an expat if you like, spend most of my time in Malta"
    They then asked him if he thought it would be harder to work abroad if we leave - this seemed to be the first time he'd considered this "maybe -it's swings and roundabouts isn't it?"

    I don't think it is swings and roundabouts - I think it's about removing the free movement of labour that allows people from the UK to work in Europe without applying for a visa - this is neither a swing nor a roundabout but it is something you should possibly understand before voting one way or another!
     
  5. Yadda

    Yadda Minimodder

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    According to the BBC Wales news just now, reported hate crime in Wales is up 60% since the brexit vote.

    Lots of stories of non-white people being told, openly in public, things like "we won, when are you leaving?". Some were business owners who have lived in Wales for decades. They said they've never seen it this bad.
     
  6. Greentrident

    Greentrident Minimodder

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    And obviously being non white they must have come from Europe...
     
  7. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    If it is about sheer numbers, why did UKIP and Vote Leave feel the need to point out for instance that Romanians and Turks have a high number of criminals, and that women are at risk of being sexually molested by refugees?

    Nigel Farage is no longer in UKIP? :eeek: Missed that one.

    So if racists are drawn to UKIP, doesn't that prove that UKIP is perceived as a racist party?

    Again, Farage has been sacked from UKIP? I really need to watch the news more.

    Not quite the same argument, is it? Farage says that a UK employer should be able to hire a British-born, or White employee over an immigrant or ethnic minority whenever they want.

    Friedman (naïvely) suggests that free market economics make discrimination legislation redundant --if by the way we accept that women and minorities will end up earning less for the same job. Which is fine if you're a rich white male academic like Friedman, who regards prejudice as just a "personal taste". White male privilege means not having to be aware of racism or sexism as an issue.

    It's beside the point of this discussion but Friedman saw social reality around him through the spectacles of an idealised form of pure market society, in which transactions occur between purely rational individuals and lead collectively to beneficent outcomes. But that is patently not the reality, as the referendum demonstrates: people make emotive choices based on personal, often irrational beliefs. Friedman's analysis of racial discrimination is a striking example of the ways in which investment in an abstract theory can blind a person to the patent social realities around him or her.

    Then why label them as "hidden" immigrants? Was the term "second-generation immigrants" not good enough anymore? No, because "hidden" sounds more insidious (of course when UKIP was asked if that included Farage's own children --his wife is a German immigrant-- the reply was evasive. If it was really meant in good spirit, would he not have counted his own offspring amongst them?).

    What, one car extra in ten on the road causes a national gridlock? Dude, no sane person would attribute a delay on a motorway to "too many immigrants". Only a simple-minded racist would. Most people would accept that there was an accident, or that perhaps they should have left a bit earlier. But keep being the racist apologist.

    Lived in such a street. There were these four builders living in one terraced house. They were drinkers and IV drug users. They would fight in the street in the middle of the night, knives, blood, everything. One of them would frequently knock on the neighbour's doors at 3.00am in an alcohol induced paranoia convinced someone was trying to kille them, which freaked out his two young kids. They'd make inappropriate remarks to the single woman living on the other side whenever she went into her garden. They were a problem. Luckily, eventually they left and a nice couple bought the place. The relief in the street was palpable, and the couple lived on free cake and meals for quite a while.

    The builders were British. The nice couple contained a EU immigrant: myself.

    Turns out that there are plenty of Brits causing the same kind of problems. Just walk around Aston in Birmingham and you'll see what I mean. But racism means seeing the problems with foreigners, but being blinds to the same problems with locals.

    When questioned in that fateful LBC radio interview what the difference was between Romanian and German immigrants, Farage said "You know what the difference is".

    I don't think a hand-painted sign is quite in the same league as an official political campaign poster, do you?

    We're not talking about how racist this country is. I'm talking about how Vote Leave aligned with a party known to be racist, and how that is perceived to have won the vote.

    Yeah, that's why they keep arguing how immigrants are criminals and how refugees are rapists.

    I'm sure they did, but you get judged by the company you keep, kiddo.
     
    Last edited: 6 Sep 2016
  8. theshadow2001

    theshadow2001 [DELETE] means [DELETE]

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    Perception and reality are two different things. One of them is irrelevant.
     
  9. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    Well, would you regard UKIP as a racist party?
     
  10. theshadow2001

    theshadow2001 [DELETE] means [DELETE]

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    I'd have to read their manifesto and listen to at least their main people talk on race related issues to determine if they are or not. Neither of which seems particularly appealing to be honest.
     
  11. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    Nigel Farage has been living in Belgium for the last 20 years, married a German and works in the European Parliament. You'd think he'd feel comfortable with hearing a few foreign languages by now. But no, he still freaks out a little when he hears foreign languages on a train in London, one of the most cosmopolitan cities in the world.

    And although he strongly feels that immigrants should learn to speak the language of the country where they came to live, he still does not speak Flemish or French, by the way.
     
    Last edited: 6 Sep 2016
  12. Corky42

    Corky42 Where's walle?

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    You speaking of LBC Nexxo reminded me of this...
     
  13. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    I suspect that the public will simply sink back into political apathy with the grim self-satisfaction of knowing that they have been deceived by politicians again. As if the promise of unicorns wasn't a big clue.

    Con artists always say that a good mark wants to be conned.
     
  14. theshadow2001

    theshadow2001 [DELETE] means [DELETE]

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    Naivety != wanting to be conned.
     
  15. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    Voting for unicorns != naïveté.
     
  16. impar

    impar Minimodder

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  17. theshadow2001

    theshadow2001 [DELETE] means [DELETE]

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    Given that oxfords definition of naive includes a lack of judgement, you are wrong.

    Voting for unicorns == naivety.
     
  18. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    I'd say it's more in the ballpark of greed.
     
  19. theshadow2001

    theshadow2001 [DELETE] means [DELETE]

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    Wanting it all is greed and believing you'll get it is naive. How about that?
     
  20. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    I'd say that's a fair compromise. :D
     

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