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E.U: Leave or Stay? Your thoughts.

Discussion in 'Serious' started by TheBlackSwordsMan, 22 Feb 2016.

  1. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    But also more people voted to Remain than voted for the Tories in the last election. And they can vote the current government out in 2020.

    Meanwhile the Telegraph writes that it's time for a new campaign for Brexit. No dude, it's time for a ****ing PLAN for Brexit. It's time for a ****ing reality check on Brexit. Don't expect any more campaigning Mr Heath, because there are no lies left to tell.

    Oh, and government acknowledged in 2010 that referendums are really only advisory and not binding. Because you know, parliamentary sovereignty.
     
    Last edited: 20 Oct 2016
  2. Anfield

    Anfield Multimodder

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    That might as well read "Please fund our propaganda", can't really blame him for trying after the Banks received billions.
     
  3. Corky42

    Corky42 Where's walle?

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    It's going to be difficult to start a new campaign as IMO there was never a campaign to start with, the whole leave augment was based on wishes and scare tactics, a campaign would need some sort of idea, message, or policy, something that even now seems lacking, it's difficult to restart a campaign that was so ambiguous.
     
  4. theshadow2001

    theshadow2001 [DELETE] means [DELETE]

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    Just start a government campaign vilifying the EU and other EU countries. Posters, bill boards, television and radio adds, that sort of thing. That'll get a good majority on board.
     
  5. Anfield

    Anfield Multimodder

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  6. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    I thought that's already happening?
     
  7. theshadow2001

    theshadow2001 [DELETE] means [DELETE]

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    Well it is, but that was just the referendum campaign. This would be done in a public service style with full government backing and no one else to counter it, unlike in the actual referendum which had two sides. So basically hit the public with one sided vilification of Europe.

    I was listening to the radio today. Brexit is good news for the financial industry in Ireland. They are already pushing towards poaching British financial services. They were even discussing the problems associated with insufficient housing to accommodate the influx of the associated new workers.. They stated that Ireland/Dublin is a more family friendly place than other potential European cities and speaking English natively along with access to the common market as benefits.
     
  8. Anfield

    Anfield Multimodder

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    Until their Apple-esque tax deal collapses:D
     
  9. theshadow2001

    theshadow2001 [DELETE] means [DELETE]

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    Given that the UK doesn't have such a Tax rate, having an Apple tax deal doesn't seem to be a requirement. So when it does collapse and the yanks pull their companies out maybe the financial services will stay.
     
  10. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    I think that Ireland is going to be just fine. I hope that Dublin gets a big slice of the finance pie and does really well out of it. :thumb:

    EDIT: and judging by May's performance in Brussels it will. Way to go pissing off your negotiating partner, Theresa. More significantly, when Tusk was interviewed he sounded tired. The EU has worked through most of its stages of grief now. It's done denial ("Surely not serious?"), it's done anger. And most importantly, it has gone past bargaining, where the UK needs them to be. The EU is in resignation now, and soon it will move on to acceptance and other matters. I predict negotiations will be brief and brusque.

    Tynecyder, I found another expert for you. How about Sir Brian Unwind, who negotiated Thatcher's EU membership rebate? Here is his view.
     
    Last edited: 21 Oct 2016
  11. Tynecider

    Tynecider Since ZX81

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    :eyebrow:
     
  12. Tynecider

    Tynecider Since ZX81

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    It appaers people will see it from different angles.
    The Euro is central to all EU policies, it is after all the currency.
    No they are not doing a very good job, And IF we were to influence (if at all) the direction and strength of the euro and the debt attached to it, We would obviously have to give up the pound and join it, see the obvious problem there. People who voted Brexit certainly did.
    And the EU army was shot down by every single pro EU politician despite the fact the FACTS said otherwise, After brexit they shut up about because the cards were on the table and the cards say an EU army IS in the works.
    What people wont talk about is the fact if we had voted to remain it was the signal to further EU integration and adoption of the euro, the EU beurocrats made it quite clear what was expected if we chose to remain.
    But I guess that had no influence on people voting to leave.

    Everybody I know that voted to leave also wanted some form control on immigration.
    People seemed to moon howl at the lack of services (even before 2008) but yet chose to be silent on the increasing influx of carbon footprints putting strain on the system, which resulted in brexit (or a dissaproving public if you want to call it what it is)

    I made a good call on Froman didn't I, He is as corrupt as they come and has zero experience in trade negotiating, just dodging laws.
    When I say experts, I mean people with a successful track record in trade, which is maybe why HMG is looking abroad for "experienced" trade negotiators" and not the EU, Although there are quite a few people with trade experience in this country who would act in out best interests, We shall see what comes of that.
    Go an source them if you care.

    You can think all you want of me Nexxo, Fact is I have been popping on here only to see you posting links in desparation and giving digs wherever you can to poeple who voted to leave (not just to me).
    You seem the most desparate to slate the choice of the country, even though you are making a good living out of it.

    Speculate all you want, Until article 50 is signed, NOBODY knows what the future holds.
    The media have an idealogical agenda, that is why they are so polarised between left and right (which is an abuse of thier reponsibility as jounalists) That is reflected in this thread.

    The left just love a good old "ism" or "ist" when they are forced to deal with a reality that does not conform to their ideology and is usually a reality of their own making. Pidgeon-hole 101 or shirking responsibility, The tactic is getting old but was a good recipe for increasing the leave vote. I wonder what it's swan song will be.

    Why dont you try looking at Brexit from a historical context and start looking to the worldwide success stories from independance, trade and economics. On that, we (the UK) are in a good position.
    And in that you will find many "solid arguments" for Brexit.

    Now, My cuppa is done and I must get going as I took today off to play BF1, Have fun frothing.
     
  13. Corky42

    Corky42 Where's walle?

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    Found this article on the thoughts of the campaign director of Vote Leave, Dominic Cummings, a rather interesting read.
    The EU has been around for over 40 years the single currency for only 17 years, if the EU has been in existence before the single currency it doesn't make much sense to say the single currency is central to the EU as it hasn't been for the majority of its existence.

    It's not obvious at all, that you think it is just goes to show how little you know about the influence the UK had within the EU, if you need an example you only have to look at how Gordon Brown convinced the EU to bail out the banks, because the alternative wasn't worth thinking about.

    What facts? Everything I've read pointed to an EU army being an impossibility, especially when the top two nations in terms of military spending were against it, obviously that's now down to one (France), like i said if anything the UK leaving the EU has made the chances of an EU army more likely, not less.

    Again what fact, all i see are suppositions, the facts are the UK was the main thing standing in the way of further political integration, maybe you'd like to provide some evidence that EU bureaucrats made it clear what was expected if we chose to remain as based on past history I've found most anti-EU proponents rarely base what they believe on actual facts.
     
    Last edited: 21 Oct 2016
  14. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    Because that is clearly BS. The Single Market is practically Margaret Thatcher's creation (ironically). She pushed it through in its current form. British laywers wrote the European Bill of Rights. A British diplomat even wrote Article 50. Corky42 has already mentioned how Gordon Brown almost single-handedly orchestrated the EU response to the 2008 global economic crisis. The narrative that Germany, as the largest economy in the EU rules the roost while the UK, as the second largest (by a small margin) is totally powerless simply makes no sense.

    The EU agreed to a deal with Cameron in which the UK would opt out of "ever closer union" with the EU, and also in which the EU acknowledged other currencies beside the Euro. He also won guarantees that countries outside the Eurozone, such as Britain, would not be required to fund Euro bailouts and would be reimbursed for central EU funds used to prop up the euro. The deal also provided a right for any member state to escalate concerns about the impact of Eurozone decisions for urgent discussion in the European Council.

    The very fact that you go on about this shows that you can't see past your own nose. Multiple trade representatives, Australian ones and even British ones, have said the same thing.

    Actually the first thing the UK did was approach the British EU trade negotiators (there are about 50). Because EU trade negotiators are recognised across the world as a highly competent team of experts. But perhaps Sir Brian Unwin passes your muster?

    But I love the way how you imply that having a negative opinion on Brexit means being against the country's best interest. Did 48% of the population not have the country's best interests at heart?

    I think that your arguments are based on ad hominem attacks and gross inaccuracies (your putting the word FACT in capitals notwithstanding). I think that your thinking on this issue is distorted at a fundamental level. Point in case your implication that I am betraying my benefactor country by criticising Brexit. The implications being:
    - Criticising Brexit is being against this country (perhaps you should sign Christian Holliday's petition),
    - I am a foreigner living off UK's benevolent charity and should be grateful and STFU up. Presumably freedom of speech is only for British citizens (well, only 52% of them).

    But perhaps I should not be surprised when an unelected PM can just chuck the previous government manifesto, override parliamental sovereignty and talk about forcing companies to list their foreign employees to shame them --and some people actually think that is a good thing.

    I prefer to deal with present reality rather than nostalgic interpretations of a past that does not exist anymore. But 1984 seems a good fit.
     
    Last edited: 21 Oct 2016
  15. Tynecider

    Tynecider Since ZX81

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    Ok Corky:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_the_European_Union

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-plans-that-could-pave-way-for-an-eu-army-are-being-held-back-a7052501.html
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/3264484/New-Defence-Secretary-John-Hutton-backs-EU-Army.html
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/08/jean-claude-juncker-calls-for-eu-army-european-commission-miltary

    Nexxo, I bet your seething at the fact I slammed your source (Froman) as a globalist shill, I bet you didn't even expect him to be of the untrustworthy calibre he is. I suppoose you don't have the integrity to agree I was right about him. Is that idealogically impossible, thought so as it's much easier to attack the person. Alinsky rule number 12

    As for naming and shaming, It didn't come to fruition, but it got the attention of the people whom it was directed at didn't it (employers abusing migrant workers).
    I beleive it was intended to get accurate figure on how many are actually in work, since HMG doesn't appear to have a bloody clue, But that's my opinion on it.
    Either way, It wasn't a call to ask people to leave as some would assume.

    Anything that you disagree with is an ad-homein attack, Just for clarity, here is an ad-homein Attack: You work for the "underfunded" (in your words) NHS, shouldn't you be working for your tax payer funded paycheque instead of frothing and howling on these forums during the work day. Just asking based on your average posts per day, or is that a "gross innacuracy".

    Now you have your ad-homein attack Also rule number 12 from the infamous lefty Saul Alinky's "Rules for Radicals", Hope that clears that up for future reference.

    You think my thoughts are fundamentally distorted on the issue, ANYBODY who disagrees with you is fundamentally distorted in your eyes chief, Maybe you should look in the mirror (or back through this thread)
     
  16. Corky42

    Corky42 Where's walle?

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    This is exactly the sort of hyperbole that seemed to run throughout the campaign, not that it's the most authoritative source but even the wiki you linked to states the following...
    My emphasis added as it seems everyone who makes claims about an EU army fails to understand how the EU works and that it would need all 28, soon to be 27, members head of state to agree, something that's soon to become more, not less likely now we've voted to leave as i initially said.

    And besides Article 42.7 of the Lisbon treaty has nothing to do with an EU army, it's the solidarity clause that states that if a member of the European Union is the victim of “armed aggression on its territory” other states have an “obligation of aid and assistance by all the means in their power.” (not the EU's power)

    It's no different than NATO’s Article 5.

    How about instead of listening to the hyperbole from tabloid papers who have their own agendas we actually fact check the claim of an EU army...
    Seriously if you're worried about an EU army then the UK deciding to leave the EU is probably the worst outcome you could imagine as us leaving has removed the biggest roadblock to that ever happening.
     
    Last edited: 21 Oct 2016
  17. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    Actually I can't be asked to unpick his CV with you because that is beside the point. He made a simple statement, and that observation on this particular matter is shared by many trade experts, including British, undoubtedly competent ones. Nobody has said that actually, he is wrong on this. That is the point.

    But it was seriously proposed. And you don't seem to see the significance of that.

    No, proper ad hominem attacks are:
    - I am a drain on the country's resources
    - I am a threat to British cultural identity
    - I took away a Brit's job.

    Seriously, it's like you're not even trying. :p

    But if there was anything I said that was a slight on your person, rather than a criticism of your argument, then I apologise unreservedly. I think it is quite clear that (although nobody is howling or frothing) Brexit is something that people feel very strongly about, because it is a much bigger, far-reaching issue than many people realise. And although 52% think that it will all be fine, so why the upset and anger, there is 48%, including experts from all over the world, including the UK, who think it is going to be a seriously bad thing in many ways and that something really important has been lost. I hope you're right and Britain will thrive just fine (I prefer being happy to being right), but like many others, including people who are not dumb or uninformed about this matter, I seriously worry that it won't. I don't wish ill for this country, I fear it. Seriously.

    The tragic thing is that the referendum has not served its primary, cynical purpose of uniting the Tory party --it is still split-- but just split the whole damn country. Look what it did to this forum membership. We didn't use to shout at each other (much). What upsets me personally is that it has changed how I think and feel about the British people in a way that violates my personal values on how I want to think and feel about people, and it is going to take some time to work that out. And I don't want to extend that to how I think about members of this forum, who are a bit more than anonymous people to me. So I am going to step back from the argument now.
     
    Last edited: 21 Oct 2016
  18. Anfield

    Anfield Multimodder

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    No no, you are out of date, you need to pretend to be 13 and wait until a charity makes up a random job title for you:D
     
  19. Harlequin

    Harlequin Modder

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    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37735968

    and

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-language-exclusive-idUSKCN12L1E0

     
  20. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    Well, Wallonia's blocking the CETA deal should remove any doubts about the democratic power of the electorates of EU member states.
     

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