E.U: Leave or Stay? Your thoughts.

A very well written and thoughtful blog post.

However i get the feeling we're at the stage now where Brexiteers are all but deaf to critical thought and objective reasoning, all the points mentioned in that blog post were highlighted before the vote and yet people decided to hand more power to the very people who caused the problems in the first place.

We (the UK) have basically done the equivalent of getting married to an abusive partner in the hope that they'll change their ways and stop the abuse and lies now we've professed our life long commitment to them.

 

Because there's the delusion that if they do something the people™ don't like, they can simply vote them out. But that's the same logic as a battered partner saying: "well, I know he hits me, but when I've married him I can always divorce him if he gets too bad".

The people™ have never made a sensible voting choice before; why would they suddenly start now?

 

And that was quick...

Note how this law will apply not just to spies, but also journalists and whistleblowers, and now includes information "the release of which would harm Britain's economic interests". Such as confidential details about the Brexit negotiations, perhaps?

This law would never survive the ECJ. With Britain outside it however...

But do "the people" care? Do they even know? Does the Daily Mail or The Express or The Sun cover this? Nope. Turkeys don't read the news, and they certainly don't know what the sound of an axe grinding on a sharpening stone means.

 

Too many people swallowed the "If you've got nothing to hide" lie that was told with each new invasive surveillance measure revealed hook line and sinker.

So no surprise if they swallow the "Governments and Corporations will not abuse the power to jail whatever journalist they feel like" lie as well.

 

I think it's not even that. It would involve people actually being aware of what is going on and having an opinion about it.

Remember the 2011 riots? That wasn't a protest against anything specific; it was just people acting out --a bunch of people suddenly experienced a sense of having power and they just let rip in an act of vandalism. I think that the EU referendum was for many people the same: an act of electoral vandalism by a bunch of people who suddenly found they had been given a stick to beat the government with.

The idea that the electorate will keep the government in check is a fantasy. They have never done so before. It would involve staying informed of political affairs, making rational choices and voting accordingly, and British tabloids don't provide proper information and the way British politics works do not lend itself to it. And especially the poorest people simply don't care; they are too busy trying to make ends meet and survive, and their education simply does not teach them to think rationally or politically.

 

1819 peterloo massacre directly contributed to the great reform act of 1832

 

Thirteen years later? That's a generous interpretation.

Anyway, don't see a revolt like that happening anytime soon.

 

Cause and effect but Peterloo was THE defining moment in the push for parliamentary reform, which was opposed by non other than the Duke of Wellington and the Tory party. They lost the 1832 general election to the Whig`s under Earl Grey (yes , he of the tea fame) , and with a majority started the process of reform. Again it was opposed in the lords, but and you might like this , Earl Grey proposed to swamp the lords with pro reform peers.

 

So the electorate's idea of "taking back control" is centralising power in a government that history has shown takes a bloody mass-revolt to (eventually) challenge successfully? Love that old skool politics, but personally I would have stuck with the ECJ.

 

"Curiouser and curiouser!" cried Alice.
https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/pe...-know-who-paid-for-key-leave-campaign-adverts

 

I'm sure the "poor" will manage just fine without your compassion and care. Just how patronising can you go exactly? Some of the "poor" (that's a term I find offensive when used in the context you have throughout this thread) voted to leave because they are disenfranchised with politics, not through their own ignorance but because they've been the ones bearing the brunt of political choices, faced stigmatisation through the media, our own politicians and many of the "elite" here in the UK. Some of the "poor" voted because EU policies have had a direct impact on their lives. It isn't all great being EU members and there certainly are problems with it.

I think we were given a choice, a pretty simple one; do we have faith that the problems with the EU can be rectified, or do we give up our membership and forge our own path? I do cede the point that the brexit campaigners didn't have a clue what Brexit would actually mean, but in the same breath all we got from the remain campaigners was loose promises that the problems could be fixed. It was hardly going to convince Euro sceptics to vote remain. Want to apportion blame, then blame the remain camp too, they couldn't sell chips to a hungry man!!

You've got a choice Nexxo, accept we're leaving the EU on the terms that will be decided and agreed on, or look at emigrating. Deal with it and move on. Simples.

 

And yet more EU funding goes to the poorer areas of the UK while government funding had been falling in those same areas, people basically voted to give more powers to the very people who you rightly pointed out have borne the brunt of the "elites" in the UK.

You seem to have made what IMO is the all too common mistake of all the leave voters I've come across so far, misattributing the cause of problems isn't going to fix anything and risks making things worse not better.

Also apportioning blame to either the leave of remain campaigns just goes to show you've failed to spot the elephant in the room, that elephant being politicians telling you how to vote instead of deciding for yourself, it's like blaming the person who told you to go play in traffic when you get hit by a car.

 

A huge part of Brexit voters voted out because of immigration, right ? Let's look at that chart i linked before once again :


First of all, from 2004 to 2011 you could have zero-ed the orange bar. Secondly, overwhelming majority of the red, orange, green and purple bars are working people, so they are not putting strain on your social services.
And finally, leaving EU will not do absolutely anything with the light blue bar at all.

So leaving EU will not do anything with the migration, and might actually make it worse for UK, as you will also lose Dublin III protection to transfer the refugees back to the original point of entry in the EU.
Also there is a very high chance of Le Touquet agreement dying with Brexit and new French government, which would move the UK border checks back to UK from Calais - thus if immigrants get through, UK will have to process asylum requests. Which again increases the light blue bars.

It always comes back to this article for me :
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...s-town-showered-eu-cash-votes-leave-ebbw-vale
Good luck to all those poorer areas, they will need it when they will ask for a similar money for similar advancement programs from UK government.

 

You're jumping the gun there and making assumptions on what I did or didn't vote for and why. I was stating why some voted the way they did, not what I did.

If you want to deny the fact that the remain campaign was complicit (albeit unintentionally) in the result then knock yourself out, but that would certainly be wrong factually. If the remain camp had put forth a stronger argument then they could have swayed more people into voting to remain. They didn't and their whole campaign was absolutely wrong in the messages used and also the tone. They got spanked for it.

But ask the people in those areas if they feel any benefit of this EU funding and I'll bet anything the answer is no. I don't doubt that the funding does do some good, but the majority of people in those areas don't see any tangible benefit. They are still having to live on the breadline, living on a hand to mouth basis and having to deal with the problems associated with the EU membership. I don't care what the statistics show, live in the poorer areas and it's obvious there is no feel good factor from them.

 

No you implied that's how you voted and then gave reasons why, if that's not what you did then do you care to explain how you know "Some of the "poor" voted because EU policies have had a direct impact on their lives." are you a mind reader or are you just making assumptions those are the reasons?

 

No I didn't, you assumed. I didn't assume anything though. I am one of the "poor" people you lot here enjoy pulling down. I have my own reasons for voting the way I did, they are my own business and I like to keep them private. It's exactly the same when I vote in any other election, be it local, general or the referendum. I do enjoy talking to my neighbours and friends, many of which are also "poor". So next time you make assumptions at least have the grace to admit that once you realise you are wrong. Helps foster constructive debate.

 

What problems exactly are those ? Aren't you attributing issues created by UK government to EU, as many Brexiters do ?

 

I think the real big problem is perception and communication, in terms of the problems we face and how the result came about. Rightly or wrongly a lot of people perceive some of the problems they face to be as a direct result of EU legislation, such as the topic of immigration.

The EU isn't helping there because they've said there will be no discussion on the matter. So people are left feeling like it's a like it or lump it response from them. If the EU had been more willing to discuss the issues, perceived or real, then maybe things could have panned out differently. The remain campaigners didn't help either because they were willing to admit there were problems with the immigration system but they put forth flimsy, wishy washy promises that have been made and broken before. People feel lied to, ignored and that they've been taken for mugs, hence why so many voted to leave. You can pull people down for that all you want, but the fact is I understand that frustration and sense of not having a real voice, I may or may not share those sentiments but it isn't me I'm talking about.

The EU's move towards forming a super state has and does alarm people. Globalisation is racked with problems, so any moves to further embrace this is going down like a lead balloon for many too. I can't blame anyone for feeling that way either. The super rich are getting richer, the rich are too, meanwhile the lowest earners are the ones who face difficult life choices on a weekly or even daily basis. We all know the EU isn't perfect, let's not kid ourselves otherwise. I think the thing that separates the leave and remain voters was the amount of faith they had in the EU. Those who believe in the EU voted to remain, those who didn't voted to leave.

 

I'm not denying anything, I'm saying that by pointing the finger of blame at the politicians and by extent the campaigns they ran you're utterly ignoring the whole point of having an opinion, that being it should be your opinion based on objective facts and information, not an opinion that's based on the opinion of someone else.

Like i said if someone told you playing in traffic is totally safe and you should go and do it would you just believe what your told or would you form you own opinion on the subject.

You can point the finger of blame as much as you like but that's like admitting you personally didn't asses the danger of playing in traffic, that you took the person telling you to do it at their word and quiet frankly that's the height of gullibility.

I see a problem with your logic, there isn't any as you've based what you said on nothing but anecdotal evidence, sure you can claim people in those areas don't notice where the money comes from but last time i checked people care very little about where the money comes from as long as they get it.

There's no doubting times are hard for people all across the UK but to base a decisions on nothing more than anecdotal evidence and explicitly rule out statistical evidence is asking for trouble, that would be like trusting a tobacco company who tells you smoking is healthy while ignoring the increased mortality rate of smokers.

Well if you didn't assume those were the reason for the "poor" voting the way they did then perhaps you'd care to provide the evidence that you based you're original statement on, because until you do then I'd be correct in my assumption that you statement was based on personal circumstances.

And if you based you're opinion on talking to your neighbours I've got news for you, the UK has a lot more people living in it than just your neighbours.

 

Idiot, from from idios, meaning ‘own, private’.
Speak up! Otherwise you're just showing up your ignorance of both democracy and language.

Oh, and I'm one of the poors too, from the one of the poorest regions in Northern Europe - You don't get to play that card anymore because you don't represent my views.