E.U: Leave or Stay? Your thoughts.

That's just abdicating responsibility for your democratic vote. In which case you may as well embrace dictatorship.

No, you just described how people felt. Which we have established is based in no fact or logic whatsoever.

Basically people are angry with how the UK government that they voted for is treating them, and in response they choose to reject EU membership and centralise power even more with the government that let them down. People rant against globalisation and in response they leave a political union that protects them from globalisation. Gotcha.

 

Nice post. Insightful.

 

You can take as much offense as you like however that doesn't change the evidence.

I would, as a poor, uneducated, white bloke love things to be different, but there not, I'm not saying that everyone who voted leave is poor, uneducated and white, just that statistically and anecdotally leave voters have higher percentages of people from those demographics.

 

Because logic and evidence. VipersGratitude's post covers it nicely. Read. Understand.

If Brexit is going to be just fine, why has the government still not pulled the trigger? Why not just default to WTO rules and be done with it? Why all the effort by government to escape parliamentary oversight of the negotiation process and objectives?

 

I don't like sharing how I vote in any election or even the referendum but at this point I feel I have to, just to clear up the mistakes made here in assuming. I abstained. I spoiled my ballot papers. My reason why was I just didn't know how to vote and keep a clear conscious. I believe that we can prosper outside of the EU as said previously but I am worried about the fall out for me and my family. So it was a catch 22 for me. I hate the fact that the remain camp didn't put up a stronger fight and more compelling arguments. I also hate the fact that the leave campaign was just as ineffective. I spent a lot of time trying to research, all I found was conflicting reports, arguments being countered and re-countered and a whole mess. Would I be happy with another referendum? No I wouldn't. Why, because another referendum is just going to further increase the period of instability than it could be now.

I can understand why people voted to leave and I can also understand why people voted to remain. What I don't like is the priggishness and snooty attitudes since the referendum here on this thread. It got my back up and still does.

 

That's rubbish Nexxo, Viper doesn't give any clue to how the land will lie in 10 years as well you know. You know as well as I do that your 10 years statement is no better than the opinions I've offered. Show some honesty here for once in your posting history.

 

Sorry but that doesn't wash, what you're saying is that because some guy didn't make a compelling case for why you shouldn't jump off a cliff that they're to blame if someone jumped of the cliff, that they were complicit because they couldn't convince someone not to jump.

 

Seeing as they took up the mantle of fighting the good cause, I'd have expected a good fight, or should I not be disappointed? Of course they were complicit in the result.

 

You say that the poor in your area basically voted Leave, because they were angry about their situation, without actually understanding how EU membership had a bearing on it. And you expect us to be all respectful of that, and not to call their decision stupid?

Well sorry, but they were stupid.

You then blame the Remain campaign for not putting up a better argument. Like pointing out all the lies by Leave was not enough to cast a bit of doubt on their case. Like every expert in the world saying that basically this would be a bad idea wasn't enough. Sorry, you just weren't listening.

But more significantly, you cannot argue that we must respect the people's democratic vote if those same people will not take ownership of it; if they expect politicians to convince them rather than to do some fact finding and thinking for themselves.

 

Obviously no one can predict the future however we can use past behavior and actions as predictors of future behavior and actions, if you want to know what the UK will look like in 10-20-30 years from now just look to the behavior and actions of governments gone-by, governments from both sides of the political spectrum.

So you're saying you can't identify if a cause is good, that you need someone like a politician to tell you, that you need a politician to convince you why a certain action is good because you can't decide for yourself.

 

No not at all, and that is why I abstained from voting. I done the homework. For every report that claimed doom and gloom there was another pulling that report to pieces. Us leaving the EU has no precedent so finding solid figures is almost impossible, it left me feeling like I couldn't decide either way and my spoiling of the ballot paper reflected that.

Why do you have such an issue considering that the remain campaigners played a part in the result?

 

And have you bothered to compare the credentials of the people publishing the reports that 'everything will be fine'?

What is a 'report' anyway? Daily mail quoting a random 'expert' that we will be fine without all the immigrants taking away jobs? Or is it think tank providing a whitepaper which at least has some semblance of coherence and logic behind it?

 

See now this is the level we come to yet again. I may be poor but I am able to contrast and compare sources of research. I also understand the difference between qualitative and quantitive research, disinformation, misinformation, bias, skewing and a whole other raft of tools I learned and which assisted me whilst I was at uni and further assisted in my work. Again, being on the breadline or close to it really doesn't give a clear indicator of intellect. Want to imply I'm thick or ignorant, just come out and say it, I'd have more respect for that.

 

We know that it would have been easier to predict where the UK would be in 10 years time inside the EU than where it will be outside of it:

- What will the UK be leaving the EU for? WTO rules? Which ones (it can't simply copy EU tariffs and rules)? Will it get an FTA with the EU, and what will that look like? Will the financial services keep passporting or equivalency rules or will a significant part of it have to leave? Will Nissan stay? Will Honda? Will Vauxhall?
- Will the UK be able to keep the 50+ FTA's with non-EU countries it has as part of the EU? Will it be able to sign as favourable ones itself, outside of the EU? Will it just end up signing another TTIP with the US?
- What about the 100+ European regulatory agencies it was part of? Interpol? European Aviation Safety Agency? Single European Sky? European Medicines Agency? How much will it cost to set up its own equivalents? Now it's leaving Euratom, what will that mean for Hinckley Point?
- If Trump backs out of NATO, and the EU creates its own army, where does that leave the UK? What soft geopolitical power will the UK now have, lest it just be a vassal of the US?
- Now the UK is leaving the ECJ and European Bill of Human Rights, what will the UK Human Rights Act look like? After the snoopers charter? The proposed new Espionage Act? Will the UK keep EU employee rights? Environmental protection rules? Consumer protection rules?
- it has already been established that immigration is unlikely to change as the UK economy continues to depend on it. But EU and even non-EU immigrants are already showing less interest in coming here. UK farmers actually cannot find the seasonal workers for next year's harvest. Our local hospital is struggling to fill nursing posts now EU immigrant nurses are leaving. 8% of NHS posts are filled by EU immigrants; 20% by non-EU immigrants. There is a shortage of 5000 doctors and 24000 unfulfilled nursing vacancies. Meanwhile a quarter of doctor and nurse training posts remain unfilled. See where this is going?

 

I agree with the above. I don't agree with the previous statement you made. You don't have a clue where we will be in 10 years or even 5.

 

I found it to be less clear cut for looking at the long term ramifications, which is something that concerns me more. Hence why I abstained to vote. Maybe I had some sub-conscious bias myself, either way I felt I couldn't commit.