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E.U: Leave or Stay? Your thoughts.

Discussion in 'Serious' started by TheBlackSwordsMan, 22 Feb 2016.

  1. Mankz

    Mankz 5318008

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    Surely in a democracy the only responsibility you have is to yourself?

    I might be totally misguided here, but I've always considered voting to be about the most selfish act possible. I go into that polling booth to vote for what I want, not what might be best for the people around me or the country, because I am the one who has to live with what I've chosen. Case in point: I voted Leave becuase I wanted to, but I certainly don't think it is the best thing for the country.

    Or maybe im just a bit of an arsehole...
     
  2. Corky42

    Corky42 What did walle eat for breakfast?

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    It's probably closer to a cancer patient saying they're going to use alternative "medicine" and juju beads because modern medicine hasn't been working.

    It depends on the person IMO, while there's undoubtedly some people who consider only themselves when they cast their vote i suspect that number is very low, even though you say you vote for what you want i suspect that's not entirely true as i would guess you took into account, to a lesser or greater extent, the effect that it would have on the wider society that you're a part of, no man is an island.

    One thing the democratic process does, or at least should do, is cause people to question their and others place in society.
     
    Last edited: 8 Feb 2018
  3. adidan

    adidan Avatar is back out of season.

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    True enough but then you're faced with situations like my mum.

    Before the vote: "oh i don't know what it's all about, i'm ignorant about politics"
    "Oh so you're not voting then?"
    "Oh no, i'm voting to leave"
    "Oh, why?"
    "I voted against it in the 70's. Anyway, i don't want to talk about it."

    Pointing out it may make life harder for me and my partner (who she likes btw) just came back with "oh people like her will be fine". Whatever that means.

    That brick wall may have a crack in it though, explaining a few things about it and she confesses she didn't realise how ignorant she'd been.
     
  4. Mankz

    Mankz 5318008

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    See thats the part I find myself disagreeing with entirely. I think its because every single person from every part of the country and every class / culture's vote carries the exact same weight? (I know it doesn't entirely in reality with constituencies etc). If you've got £10 in the bank, or £1M, you still go and vote, and that one vote is the same when its counted as anyone else's ballot.
     
  5. Corky42

    Corky42 What did walle eat for breakfast?

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    Yes and i wasn't trying to say or imply that one vote carries more, or less, weight than another, that's obviously how it came across though so apologies.

    I was trying to explain how, when deciding who to vote for, people don't decide based solely on their own self interests, at least not directly, I'd even go as far to say it's impossible to do so in a democratic society as ultimately those decision born out of self interest effect everyone including the person who voted for what are supposedly selfish reasons.
     
  6. Mankz

    Mankz 5318008

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    I think were differing because you're considering the outcome of the election, when im thinking about the thought process pre-ballot?
     
  7. adidan

    adidan Avatar is back out of season.

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    You keep good company, Plato would agree with you.

    It's the trouble with a referendum, have a referendum on paying income tax and I expect most people would think selfishly and choose not pay and the country would go to pot.

    Voting for elected officials who implement income tax and we can generally see it's a good thing for the nation.
     
  8. Corky42

    Corky42 What did walle eat for breakfast?

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    I'm talking about the thought process also but i don't think you can separate that from outcome, if someone thinks I'll vote for lower taxes then i suspect they also think darn that means more rubbish on the streets or higher crime rates, in essence they may vote for selfish reasons but because both the positive and negative effect of doing so effects the whole of society by extension it's not selfish.

    To me acting selfishly is acting only out of self interest but in a democratic society that's impossible as the decision of who to vote for, and by extension who governs society, effects everyone to some extent.

    Those treasury figures illustrate that perfectly IMO, the economic impact of something like Brexit isn't a binary it effects me or it doesn't, it's only going to effect London by 3% whereas the NE is something like 17% so it's a matter of degrees.
     
    Last edited: 8 Feb 2018
  9. Nexxo

    Nexxo Bargaining chip

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    In a democracy everybody gets a say. The responsibility lies in its consequences.
     
  10. Nexxo

    Nexxo Bargaining chip

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  11. RedFlames

    RedFlames ...is not a Belgian football team

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  12. Corky42

    Corky42 What did walle eat for breakfast?

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    Its come to something when companies and people keep having to point out the bleedin' obvious to our government, running a business at a loss isn't sustainable and if you leave an organisation you can't take the benefits of membership with you.
     
  13. loftie

    loftie Well-Known Member

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  14. hyperion

    hyperion Active Member

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    You're right and I agree in that there are too many people claiming to know what is best for everyone, where "everyone" often ends up referring to just themselves and a few others, and at times like these looking out for #1 is the most honest and logical thing to do. There's a line that can be drawn where you vote in your own self interest but not if it means that it's going to cause outright harm to other groups of people, and that's where I would separate the reasonable from the selfish.
     
  15. Nexxo

    Nexxo Bargaining chip

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  16. Corky42

    Corky42 What did walle eat for breakfast?

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    Wait up, we don't want no unelected UK bureaucrats running these negotiations. ;)

    The transition period not being a given is another statement of the bleedin' obvious IMO as despite what our government and media have said the first stage of negotiations have not been concluded, there's still some rather serious sticking points, the only reason things moved on from the first stage was because sufficient progress had been made.
     
    Last edited: 9 Feb 2018
  17. RedFlames

    RedFlames ...is not a Belgian football team

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    HMG: There’ll be an invisible border between Ireland and Northern Ireland, agreed? Ohh, but UK is leaving the SM & CU.

    EU27: Great! We’ll put the only possible way of doing that into the Treaty text.

    *HMG loses its *****
     
  18. adidan

    adidan Avatar is back out of season.

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    Collective sh!t being lost as Barnier states what will happen leaving the SM and CU.

    Not sure why when we're talking about leaving the consequences are a surprise. EU playing hardball by sticking to the rules the UK want to leave but are complaining we can't use.

    We are being led by halfwits. Can we at least have a cross party group of halfwits to deal with this rather than suffer at the hands of party politics.
     
  19. RedFlames

    RedFlames ...is not a Belgian football team

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    Brexiters: We want control of our borders!

    EU: Customs controls at borders it is then...

    Brexit: What? no! We don't want controls at our borders...

    EU: So you want controls of the borders but no controls at the borders.... riiiiiight...
     
    MLyons, adidan and Nexxo like this.
  20. Corky42

    Corky42 What did walle eat for breakfast?

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    The funny thing is i guess brexiteers view the position the EU is taking as justification of why they voted to leave, how dare this bunch of inflexible bureaucrats dictate to us what we're allowed to do.
     

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