E.U: Leave or Stay? Your thoughts.

Discussion in 'Serious' started by TheBlackSwordsMan, 22 Feb 2016.

  1. Corky42

    Corky42 What did walle eat for breakfast?

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    According to this article on The Conversation the how isn't important, apparently sensemaking doesn't need to make sense, it just needs to make us feel better.
    :p
     
  2. Nexxo

    Nexxo Bargaining chip

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    The problem is: there is not even any sense making. Any vision would do, but there is none whatsoever.

    This is very telling, given that even I can come up with a vision/strategy that would make Brexit workable and possibly even successful. I actually seem to have a better Brexit plan than the Brexiteers, who are mostly running around in circles and on the few occasions that they manage to run in a straight line, are going in the wrong direction, The great Brexit traitor saboteurs are the Brexiteers themelves.
     
  3. Anfield

    Anfield Well-Known Member

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    Better not have swiped my joke strategy of:
    London, Scotland and NI join Ireland (London can have pseudo independence from Ireland like Hong Kong does from China), while England and Wales can go isolate themselves from the world however much they want to.
     
  4. Nexxo

    Nexxo Bargaining chip

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    Good idea, but no. I was thinking more of:
    - remain in the EEA/EFTA for 5 years until those fabled trade deals are clinched, and then review if it's worth staying or going;
    - boosting UK high-tech manufacturing and technology licencing in automated farming, green energy generation (e.g. Wales leads the world in wave electricity generation; why is the UK not pouring money into that rather than a foreign-built and owned nuclear power station? Japan, China and Indonesia would pay good money for such tech), Fin-Tech and specialist engineering;
    - using public infrastructure development as a way of boosting the above (through commissioning, using it as proof of concept testing and advertising to the world what the UK can do);
    - increase state ownership share in public transport and utilities;
    - hop over to the Netherlands and see what high productivity automated farming looks like, and use these ideas to make the UK self-sufficient in food production and then quality food exports;
    - invest heavily in early child wellbeing and development schemes --like, for 20 years. It is cheap and pays off big in the long term;
    - invest in community centres and services. Again cheap but pays off hugely.
    - put all the above, plus health and social care under an all-party parliamentary working group to ensure a coherent and consistent strategy for the next 20 years.
     
    Last edited: 15 Apr 2018
  5. Corky42

    Corky42 What did walle eat for breakfast?

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    Sure there is, we're leaving the EU ← that's the vision and we don't need a map because its never been done before.

    It's like the World War II soldiers lost in the Alps, they know they're lost because no ones been there before so they know there's not a map to go by, their tired, cold, hungry, and scared but that doesn't matter as the leader has told them everythings going to OK because he knows what he's doing, he knows a way out. It doesn't matter that he doesn't actually know a way out as the tired, cold, hungry, and scared soldiers just want someone to make sense of a situation that they themselves can't make sense of.

    That's what our politicians are doing with Brexit, they're telling people who can't make sense of a complex and confusing situation that everythings going to be OK, it doesn't matter that they don't know that it's going to OK as when you're in such a situation where your brain can't make sense of things you latch onto to the first thing that appears to make sense even if it doesn't.

    You follow a map for the Pyrénées as it's the only thing that's making sense.
     
    Last edited: 15 Apr 2018
  6. Nexxo

    Nexxo Bargaining chip

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    The WWII soldiers did have a map. It was the wrong map, but it was a map. The Brexiteers don't even have a map. They're not even bothering to make any sense. They have neatly turned Brexit into an Abilene Paradox: everybody is convinced that they have to go through with this because democracy and the will of the people etc. It's not even about what the idea was anymore; let alone whose idea it was or whether it was a good idea.

    The Brexiteers have got what they wanted; it is now just a gullible electorate selling to itself the idea that there is an idea, because the alternative is admitting that it was conned into voting for a cliff dive.
     
    Last edited: 15 Apr 2018
  7. Corky42

    Corky42 What did walle eat for breakfast?

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    Yes they had a map but that was just a physical manifestation of sensemaking, it could have been their leader telling them he knows what he's doing, a star in the sky, a butterfly, or anything that seemed to make sense of a complex and confusing situation that their own brains couldn't make sense of.

    Talking about being conned it certainly seems like there's been foul play what with CA getting hold of 1M FB users and Vote Leave facing potential legal action over their breaking of electoral law.
     
  8. RedFlames

    RedFlames ...is not a Belgian football team

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    [​IMG]

    Sure India is going to love being referred to as part of the Anglosphere or being a central part of some Tory backbencher's wet dream of world domination...
     
  9. Anfield

    Anfield Well-Known Member

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    Not like Canada has extensive agreements with the US and EU that will seriously impact negotiations with the UK, oh wait...
     
  10. RedFlames

    RedFlames ...is not a Belgian football team

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  11. Nexxo

    Nexxo Bargaining chip

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    That's all true, but what I'm saying is that the Brexiteers don't even do that anymore. Brexit will be great because it will be, apparently.
     
  12. Nexxo

    Nexxo Bargaining chip

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  13. Corky42

    Corky42 What did walle eat for breakfast?

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    The fist stage of problem solving is extracting the problem in the first place, you have to make sense of a complex and confusing situation before you can see where and what the problem are and as Brexiteers can't make sense of the EU (based on the mostly incorrect assumptions they've already made about it) they can't see what the problem is.

    It's going to be great in their minds because they don't see the same problems as you or I, the EU, and particularly leaving it, are complex and confusing so they trust other people who they believe have made sense of it and are telling them everything's going to be OK, it doesn't matter if it is or isn't as in the land of the blind the one eyed man is king.

    Take this Peter North blog post about the recent EASA notice to stakeholders spelling out the details of what Brexit means to aviation, the implications of leaving the EU just on that one sector are complex and confusing as they include such things as...
    Now if you can make sense of that you're a better man than me, personally i just accept that it's so complex and confusing that i probably couldn't solve those problems and walk away, equally Brexiteers, i suggest, find it just as complex and confusing but instead of admitting they can't make sense of it they look to someone or something that seems to make sense.

    A bit like how life can be complex and confusing so people invented deity's to make sense of it all and then they didn't have to make sense or solve problems as that's someone else's job.
     
  14. Archtronics

    Archtronics Well-Known Member

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    One of those things you solve by multiple people taking small steps, the person in charge just needs to know the problem in its simplest term.
     
  15. Nexxo

    Nexxo Bargaining chip

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    The person in charge needs to first acknowledge that there is a problem. Not happening here.

    Then they need to acknowledge that their understanding of the problem is a gross simplification and that there are a lot of complications that minions have to work out. Not happening here either.

    Instead there is a lot of misdirected anger at the civil servant minions for suggesting that there are problems and complications that need working out.

    Corky42 puts his finger on it when he says that people create deities not to have to understand and deal with complex reality. To the Brexiteers, Brexit is God, hence inherently a good thing because it is God. And Leavers follow with blind faith. And civil servants and the rest of the population are expected to do the same lest they be branded as heretics.
     
    Last edited: 16 Apr 2018
  16. Archtronics

    Archtronics Well-Known Member

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    I’d say that’s part and parcel of management structures/culture in this country throughout the public and private sector.

    Blind faith brexit is indicative of tribalism in this country the rise of which I would partly attribute to the restrictions of free speech/thought etc.
     
  17. Nexxo

    Nexxo Bargaining chip

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    Power is not having to be aware of problems. Leadership is taking control of them.

    I would argue that with the advent of the internet and social media there has been an unprecedented freedom of speech and thought. It's just that there is a lot more speech than thought --because most people find it easier to talk than to think.
     
    Last edited: 16 Apr 2018
  18. Corky42

    Corky42 What did walle eat for breakfast?

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    If people who supported leaving the EU want to know why they're perceived as anti-immigration, useful idiots of the far-right, and where lead by the nose then perhaps these transcripts from University of Essex lecturer Dr Emma Briant that were published by the DCMS committee yesterday will enlighten you (Link).
    Of course it's wrong of me to tar everyone who voted to leave with the same brush but if you lie down with dogs and all that.
     
  19. Nexxo

    Nexxo Bargaining chip

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    Interestingly even the Daily Heil writes about it.

    It is well-known and even admitted by Dominic Cummings that Vote Leave rode the racist tiger to victory. And when you ride a tiger, almost nobody pays attention to what you look like, and can only see that big ****ing tiger.
     
    Last edited: 17 Apr 2018
  20. Archtronics

    Archtronics Well-Known Member

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    Most leave voters do want less immigration, I don't think there bothered about being perceived that way.

    Or do you mean being percieved as racist for being anti immigration?
     

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