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E.U: Leave or Stay? Your thoughts.

Discussion in 'Serious' started by TheBlackSwordsMan, 22 Feb 2016.

  1. RedFlames

    RedFlames ...is not a Belgian football team

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    So basically the advice wasn't worth hiding, so why did HMG try so hard to keep it hidden.
     
  2. Corky42

    Corky42 What did walle eat for breakfast?

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    It also puts any further advise from the current AG on rather shaky ground, his main premise for not releasing his own legal advise was because it would harm the national interest, exactly what part of what was released does that?
     
  3. Anfield

    Anfield Well-Known Member

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    Does anyone believe that is actually the full thing? Because I sure don't.
    Either way, the parts that the DUP doesn't like "harm the national interest", at least if you assume that Tories think that a Labour government would be against the national interest.
    Because the DUP certainly doesn't like what is in the legal advice:
    https://twitter.com/duponline/status/1070299803656048640

    That doesn't allow for no border between NI and ROI, so choosing No deal (WTO) would cause the UK to automatically tear up the GFA, CTA and Belfast Agreement unless the UK solves the NI problem for good before the departure date.
    That whole tearing up international agreements bit would inevitably bite the UK in arse during FTA negotiations.
    And since it was the UKs idea to leave it would be on the UK to buckle under, i.e. inevitably it would result in the UK having to give NI back and to make matters worse... indyref 2 is pretty much certain to gain momentum if NI gets to leave the UK, so it would then just be England and Wales left.
     
    Last edited: 5 Dec 2018
  4. RedFlames

    RedFlames ...is not a Belgian football team

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    When a govt lies and obstructs as much as this one has, they can't be surprised that everyone's natural reaction to anything they say is going to be 'I don't believe you'.
     
  5. Anfield

    Anfield Well-Known Member

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    Indeed.
    And it looks like it might get even worse on the lies and obstruction front...

    Remember the good old times of yesterday when an amendment by Grieve gave parliament a say in what Plan B should be if the May deal is voted down?

    http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/201...to-ignore-the-grieve-amendment-threatens-cons
     
  6. Corky42

    Corky42 What did walle eat for breakfast?

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    Being against a single political party is, i would say, not against the national interest, the national interest would be the whole nation irregardless of political leanings.
    I guess it could be argued that increasing the likelihood of a united Ireland is against the national interest, but then that raises the issue of why the Conservatives acted in such a manner and Labour supported them.

    Like you point out it's the UK who decided on this course of action, a course of action that I'd be surprised if anyone said they didn't know that it was incompatible with the GFA, despite the claims of Leavers that there was a magical technological solution, because of the need for NI being in a separate customs union than the rest of the UK if the supposed technological solution doesn't materialise.

    That was always a possibility, much more so than i think people gave credit for, once parliament agreed to pull the trigger on A50 they set in motion a series of events that without legislating for what they wanted would result in a so called "no deal", they should have been aware that without legislation on the books dealing with what course of action the executive (the government) should take in the event of parliament being unable to agree what they want to do when the clock ticks down to zero that the executive could quiet legally sit on their hands.

    Having said that it's probably more a way for the government to hold parliament over a barrel, they'll be saying to remain supports who don't want to vote for May's deal that if they don't they'll sit the clock out, and at the same time telling the extremists that if they don't vote for May's deal that parliament may tell them to call the whole thing off.
     
    Last edited: 5 Dec 2018
  7. adidan

    adidan Avatar is in season. See it while stocks last.

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    Any deal that can legally tie you into an arrangement indefinitely is not a 'deal'.

    Especially when Macron has already said he'd use it in fishing rights negotiations and a Spanish ship has been sailing into Gibraltar blaring out the Spanish anthem - we'll be over a barrel and they're getting lubed up. Oh, and I don't blame them, of course they should take advantage in such a case.

    But yeah, i'm not convinced all the text has been released...

    Edit: We should stop pussyfooting around. The best deal we can get we already have, have a vote: 1 Leave on WTO 2 Stay in the EU.

    Edit edit: Sounds like a Labour and LibDem MP have been reading my post :idea::hehe:
     
    Last edited: 5 Dec 2018
  8. Anfield

    Anfield Well-Known Member

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    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1070094716274950144

    So ehm in what decade will we make up our mind on what we actually want from Brexshit?
     
  9. RedFlames

    RedFlames ...is not a Belgian football team

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    So tl-dr, whatever you present to the public... they won't like it.
     
  10. liratheal

    liratheal Sharing is Caring

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    It's hard enough to please ten people. Let alone 60-ish million. Or however many you can coerce into a poll about politics.
     
  11. adidan

    adidan Avatar is in season. See it while stocks last.

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    So May says we shouldn't have a new referendum with the new information available but if her deal is struck down she may put it through Parliament to be voted on for a second time.

    Hm.
     
  12. RedFlames

    RedFlames ...is not a Belgian football team

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    Decisions are only binding when it suits, changing of minds is only allowed when it suits.
     
  13. Risky

    Risky Well-Known Member

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    The issue was a "Physical Border", e.g. border posts, etc. It's up to the UK if they want posts on their side of the border and they said they didn't. Ireland has also said that they will not be errecting border posts. It's not the UK or Ireland that insists on them but the EU, to inspect goods for single-market rules compliance.

    While emotionally I'd like to see a United Ireland, I can see no current UK politician proposing to hand it over to Ireland (or is it to the EU?) against the mishes of what is still a majority of its population. That one is just nuts.
     
  14. Corky42

    Corky42 What did walle eat for breakfast?

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    Saying that it's the EU who's insisting on a "Physical Border" is like saying it's everyone else who insists on your house having walls, doors, and windows because they won't respect your boundaries.
    (Linky)
     
  15. RedFlames

    RedFlames ...is not a Belgian football team

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    There's a big difference between wanting something and being legally obliged to have it.

    Neither the UK nor RoI/EU *want* border posts and whatnot on the RoI/EU-NI/UK border. However the crux is whether or not international treaties [be it via the EU, WTO or other] oblige either/both sides to have them, and if so how they can then square that with the international treaty that says there absolutely can't be any [the GFA].
     
  16. Anfield

    Anfield Well-Known Member

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    EU rules are clear, Ireland is required to protect the outer border of the EU.

    The problem is that EU rules that existed already before Brexit automatically become incompatible with the GFA, Belfast Agreement and CTA if either Ireland or the UK leave the EU.
    And since it is the UK leaving the club it is up to the UK to provide a solution.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it would be easy to give NI back, but what exactly are the alternatives?

    Ask the EU to abolish its rule that the outer border of the EU should be protected?
    Accept the 4 four freedoms for the entire UK in perpetuity?
    Special status for NI (aka border down the Irish Sea)?

    None of those would be any more popular with the current crop of politicians than giving NI back.
     
  17. adidan

    adidan Avatar is in season. See it while stocks last.

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    Whether NI stays in the UK or joins Ireland is not a question we have any right to answer, that's for the Northern Irish to determine for themselves.

    We can't cut them off arbitrarily, they're British Citizens at the moment.

    I would suggest they, and Scotland for that matter, should seriously consider where they wish their future to lay. Funnily enough I think I may be up in Scotland on Brexit day, at least grumpy will have company.
     
  18. Nexxo

    Nexxo Queue Jumper

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    From the Guardian:

     
  19. RedFlames

    RedFlames ...is not a Belgian football team

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    IIRC there was another survey that stated 'No deal' was only as popular it was as an outcome because most of the people asked assumed 'No deal' == 'No Brexit'
     
  20. adidan

    adidan Avatar is in season. See it while stocks last.

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    ITV scrap the 'debate' plans as well.

    I mean, it's daft. She's trying to peddle a worse deal than we have versus leaving with no deal. The reality is it is leave with no deal or stay. About time we were asked again.
     

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