E.U: Leave or Stay? Your thoughts.

I think people are just generally scared of different cultures rather than the individuals, which causes them to vote for the likes of UKIP.

Chatting to be polish folks next door today I was surprised when they said they would vote to leave if given the chance. I must admit all this scaremongering is pushing me more and more to the leave camp just to see if britain will look like fallout.

 

Just pedantry on the fact that having less of a negative quality doesn't mean you are devoid of the negative quality.

It's a little difficult to write that succinctly in an abstract manner.

 

True, dat, but it's the best we got...

 

Or you just make the ferry/train companies check the legal status of everyone travelling to the uk and create a passenger manifest, and fine them lots "hundreds per" if they are found not to be compliant. Easly done as a condition of entry to UK port/stations. the companies would be screaming at France to help police their end because doing it at our end costs them to much money.

not sure most of that was needed..... to sum up, most poeple in the UK are closset rasists that don't understand world pollotics and therefore should not be allowed to vote.

So because there is a chance that the UK may vote in a way you do not agree with, you would rather write all of them off as "UKIP voters.....", and some how there voice is less important than your's.

To note I have never voted UKIP, and have not once in this discussion lowered myself to blame it all on those "evil folk from over the sea ".

The thread is about the UK's continued (or not) membership of the EU. The migrant problems will still be there with or without our membership. In all honesty it's not like the EU are doing a stand up job of dealing with any of it at the moment.

 

I agree with your points,
2. Depending on your view of history not adopting the Euro meant the recession "wasn't as bad" as it could of been. That is a very high level overview and more localised struggles are well documented. By breaking that bond with Europe and setting up more stable trade with other nations as well, In my mind we won't be as vulnerable to Europe failing. Even the French have said there is a Jealously, that if the UK leaves why should they get access and the advantages over those that are working together. By the same logic we are loosing out because we cannot carry out trade deals without Europe taking it's slice.

3. There will be consequences and penalties but from the way the in camp are talking they will look to go above and beyond with these as an example. Like the French letting the Migrants through assuming they will still want to come. If the In camp is correct, life will be hell here with no jobs and no trade.

4. Who's to say Europe is moral? Capitalist vs Socialist, dog eat dog etc. Yes China is far from perfect but I don't believe the West can be held up a a beacon of the right way to go. Yes we have rights, rights last time I looked the government has been caught ignoring and eroding on a daily basis. At least Russia and China don't pretend to the same extent.

I am genuinely conflicted. Out don't seem to have any form of campaign or response to anything the In campaign puts forward. It still seems the stage where people declare their sides, give a few ooh's and aahh's and hope that the latest endorsement wins over the more people. Throw in a few finger wagging and name calling and that's how its looking to me

It will be affected based on the remaining budget. Our position in NATO will likely change. Isn't the UK buddied with France when it comes to aircraft carriers? A divorce could be awkward.

A wee bit. It was more drawing a parallel to Cameron going to battle over things wrong with Europe. The deal was almost too easy and in my eyes he either asked for too little or it was all meaninglessness grandstanding where everyone was playing to the script.

Yes Cameron has failed horribly but India, China, Brazil, Japan, Korea, Russia all do well and they're not part of Europe. I've mentioned above that Europe is possibly holding us back being our main trading partner and wanting to take a slice if a deal is made. Voting out gives us a chance to cut the red tape, cut the chains and do deals that benefit us.

There comes a point when the ship can't be saved. Why should we remove all the water when the captain is taking on more people who are drilling more holes. Just look how they are kicking Greece when they are down. The Greek issue is another situation created by Europe's actions and even now their actions aren't that of a united front.

Ye there will be consequences and they will place tariffs but they will go above and beyond to make an example.

 

Im out. The EU has changed beyond recognition to the organisation we joined at the start.

I don't think most 'outers' are arguing the EU has done nothing for the UK, clearly there are pros of being a fully paid up member & the EU has certainly made progress on employment, consumer rights etc. But the pros have fast become outweighed by negatives, the EU has become so monolithic and bureaucratic it is completely ineffective - take the current refugee crisis for a start & look how it has dealt with that.

So against a backdrop of;
- A huge migrant/refugee/humanitarian crisis
- Greece about to ask for another round of bailout funding
- Italy entering negotiations with the EU to bailout their banks
- France on the verge of recession
- Prospect of Turkey becoming a member within two years

I think i'd rather jump ship before said ship sinks

 

Cameron and the French trying to frighten us to stay in Europe by saying the Calais Jungle may have to be moved to Britain.
FFS WHY.
They are illegally in France it's there problem they let them in.
We set up borders to keep illegals out not let them in and decide wether we want them.
The border control agreement between us and France is just that, a private agreement and nothing to do with the EU.
Grow some balls Cameron and do what your paid to do, protect Britain, patrol our borders and make us a proud nation again.

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I think you'll find that it's a bit more complicated than that.

Currently the French allow UK customs to check immigrants on French territory. This means that when they claim asylum, they do it in France and become France's problem. If the French allow immigrants to travel on to the UK (and why wouldn't they? They stop being their problem then), then UK customs have to catch them as they enter the UK. If they claim asylum at that point, they'll be doing it on UK territory and they become the UK's problem. I mean, how do you get rid of them? It's not like you can frogmarch them en masse onto a plane back to Syria, Iraq or Afghanistan (which would amount to quite a bill anyway). They may have no passports. Airlines will not take them. The receiving countries may not accept them and put them straight back on a plane to the UK.

The border control agreement between France and the UK is separate from the EU, but only exists because of the EU. There is absolutely nothing else in it for France to keep it going.

As an aside, if this proud nation had not dicked about in Afghanistan and Iraq since 2001, most of these refugees wouldn't exist. What goes around...

 

They would still exist because America would still have been out there.

 

THIS!

 

Maybe, although how keen the US would have been to go it alone without any support from another NATO country might be debated. At least the UK could disavow responsibility for the refugee problem. Now that is a lot more difficult. Other European countries may well see themselves lumbered with a problem created by the US and UK.

 

Very keen. The US loves a good war.

 

Agreed Nexxo. We have to take the blame for Blair's ego and desire to leave a mark on the world.
The only issue I have with the migrants coming to Europe is there are other countries with similar beliefs etc like Iran or Syria. Part of the reason Syria has political unrest is the influx of refugees unsettling the balance thus making issues worse.

 

Wait what?

also

[citation needed]

 

I'm a bit confused by this. As far as I know people are fleeing from Syria, not to (though there are internally displaced people of course).

That aside, neighbouring muslim countries do take the majority of the refugees:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugees_of_the_Syrian_Civil_War

"a lot... but not all" sets off my internal weasel word alarm. Could you back up this claim? Has any research been done on this? I'm genuinely interested.

 

wrong kind of muslims - note assad allies are shia - apparently the `other side` or some of them receive money from the house of saud = suuni. finally you have the sufi muslims who everyone in Syria/Iraq attack.

 

Iraq and afghan we can not just blame on America. Britain is Americas chief ally to think they would of went without us is crazy talk. Blair and Bush together wanted to make a stand against the Taliban in Afghan at least.

Iraq is a different debate really, truth will never come out properly on that one. They thought he had WMDs well we helped create those.

America and England are at fault for a lot of things both good and bad. There's acts in England's history that are very much things that people want to forget.

Leaving the EU either way will not have an effect on the UKs continuing involvement in those things. Even if we left NATO it would not have an affect. USA and Uk relationship is a lot deeper than just a NATO treaty. Even without it America and the U.K. Would still share resources.

I am niether for or against leaving the EU it has its benefits and cons and a lot of people are like this. Most will be blackmailed into a stay vote like it not.

The company I work for has already told us a leave vote is 50% reduncies at a minimum for our office alone.

 

Just my opinion but i think Bush was just looking for an excuse to finish off what daddy didn't in the first gulf war, Blair was like a besotted teenager and became enthralled by Bush and his righteous, almost religious fervor.

We're pushing through a law in less than a year that will have far reaching consequences on peoples lives all over the world in the form of the IPB but a simple report takes six times longer.

/Rant

 

I think I have a rather strange stance on this..

I have been brought up to feel that I have to vote, becuase I have the option to do so.

In an ideal world I'd vote for us to stay in a reformed Union, but I don't think what we've agreed on goes anywhere near far enough, particularly in terms of financial regulations and border controls, being an island.

So, as I cannot honestly vote to stay, I feel I have to vote out. That being said, I'm still incredibly conflicted about doing sao.