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E.U: Leave or Stay? Your thoughts.

Discussion in 'Serious' started by TheBlackSwordsMan, 22 Feb 2016.

  1. Anfield

    Anfield Well-Known Member

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    I'd settle for a 500 word essay from each candidate, topics to choose from include:
    1: Why BoJo the Clown was wrong to suggest Child Abuse Enquiries are money spaffed up the wall
    2: Why you shouldn't tear apart centuries of democratic processes in a temper tantrum
    3: Why you shouldn't prioritize your political party over the nation
    4: Why empathy is good
    5: Why privacy is important

    Any attempt to have it ghost written will be punished by the candidate in question having to do an honest days work.
     
  2. adidan

    adidan Guesswork is still work

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    I hear Gove wants to get rid of VAT which could see an increase in fraud, BoJo wants to give a tax break to 1 in 7 paid in part by the poor through increased NI contributions and Hunt wants to cut abortion times down to 12 weeks.

    What a gaggle of crap.
     
  3. Anfield

    Anfield Well-Known Member

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    I thought he said wouldn't change it if he became PM?

    Of course that may be due to him to not actually expecting to last long enough in office to do anything:p
     
  4. RedFlames

    RedFlames ...is not a Belgian football team

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    Think of the demographics of the tory membership, the ones who'll choose the leader... this is pandering to them... It'll probably get dropped if/when he has to appeal to more than 100k people with an average age of 70+.
     
  5. Corky42

    Corky42 Where's walle?

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    I'd never be one to defend Hunt but IIRC there was a baby who survived being born around the 24 week mark recently, that side of medicine has advanced a long way since when the abortion laws were passed.
     
  6. liratheal

    liratheal Sharing is Caring

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    If the country has any sense, the Tories wouldn't be around long enough to even be choked to death come the next GE, so I suspect a lot of their "wants" and "promises" mean nothing.

    Still, I'd not be surprised to see the Tories royally **** the UK in their efforts to stay on top.

    Although it must be said, I'd expect the same behaviour from any other political party were the roles swapped around.
     
  7. Nexxo

    Nexxo Queue Jumper

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    The 12 week limit is a bit tricky though --most birth defects cannot be detected until the first trimester screening at 11-13 weeks with neural tube defects (spina bifida) not showing up until 14-20 weeks.
     
  8. Corky42

    Corky42 Where's walle?

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    Yea cutting the 24 weeks in half just seems like he's pulled a number out of his backside, although i do think the 24 week limit needs to be looked at, I'm not in anyway medically knowledgeable enough to make a judgment but maybe lowering it to something like 16 or 20 weeks would be worth thinking about.
     
  9. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Staff Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    As per @Nexxo, there are scans for serious conditions that don't show up until 20 weeks - so if you lower it to <=20 weeks, you're forcing people to carry babies that are unlikely to survive post-partum, or who will have an extremely low quality of life, to term. Even 21 weeks would mean giving parents just a few days to make what is likely to be the most difficult decision of their lives. 24 really is just about the minimum you can set it in a civilised society - at least until there are reliable ways of detecting these defects earlier.
     
  10. Nexxo

    Nexxo Queue Jumper

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    Perhaps, but it speaks of his ignorance and arrogance that he would make a unilateral decision without first running it past some medical experts (I know we've had enough of them, but still...).

    And we all know the Tory attitude towards disability and costly, life-long health care. We'd just end up with "abortion after birth".
     
  11. Corky42

    Corky42 Where's walle?

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    Yea and I'm not denying that but when a baby can be born around the 24 week mark and survive, I'm to busy reading about what AMD revealed last night to bother finding a link, that does raise questions doesn't it?
     
  12. liratheal

    liratheal Sharing is Caring

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    I have a few suggestions for "abortion after birth" if that ever becomes a thing..
     
  13. Nexxo

    Nexxo Queue Jumper

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    Of course. Time limits on abortion could be extended when birth defects are detected, for instance. Your question is valid; but Hunt's answer is not. These medical and ethical questions are to be answered by medical experts, not some overambitious politician with an ego that exceeds his intelligence.
     
    Last edited: 11 Jun 2019
  14. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Staff Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    ...not really? Just because a baby can be born at 24 weeks and survive does not mean that a specific baby should be born at 24 weeks, particularly if it's unlikely they will survive or go on to have any kind of quality of life.

    Vesna Vulović fell 33,000 feet (or a still-impressive 2,500 feet depending on which account you believe) out of an aeroplane and survived - doesn't mean we should all open the exit door and leap.
    That sounds like a much better compromise than dropping the upper limit to the point where doctors have to say "whelp, your kid ain't never going to have a life but will live, sucks to be you. And the kid too, I guess."
     
  15. Nexxo

    Nexxo Queue Jumper

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    And, as I said, we all know how the Tories feel about spending money on disability and healthcare. It seems perverse that they support the carrying to term of severely disabled babies but then won't pay for their life-long needs.
     
  16. Corky42

    Corky42 Where's walle?

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    But it also means that if a baby can be born at 24 weeks and survive that it's perhaps wrong to say we have no problem in terminating a babies life, as i said at the start of the sentence that you conveniently cropped ( :) ) "Yea and I'm not denying [what you said]" however you seem to only be viewing this from one perspective, one that I've acknowledged exists.

    I'm not denying any of the issues you've raised, I'm simply saying that if babies can be born at around the 24 week mark and survive then maybe the law needs to be reviewed, it is after all 50 years old and (afaik) contains provisions for aborting past the 24 weeks if the mothers life is in danger or if the child has sever physical or mental health problems.
     
  17. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Staff Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    And I disagree (except agreeing that Nexxo's suggestion is a good compromise): you're conflating two entirely different things. That a healthy baby may survive if born at 24 weeks should have no impact on whether or not you can terminate an unhealthy baby that may not survive or will not have any quality of life if carried to term.

    I'm also for medically assisted dying, which is basically the same thing at the other end: just because some 80 year olds do salsa class three times a week doesn't mean that a specific 80 year old dying of INSERT YOUR FAVOURITE HORRIBLE INCURABLE DEGENERATIVE CONDITION HERE shouldn't be allowed to choose to check out painlessly instead of suffering for heaven knows how long.
     
  18. Corky42

    Corky42 Where's walle?

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    I don't think I'm combining things into one as you can already (AFAIK) terminate an unhealthy baby that may not survive or will not have any quality of life if carried to term beyond the 24 week deadline, from my perspective you seem to have missed that the 24 week deadline isn't about whether the baby is healthy or unhealthy, it's about whether the termination is considered to be a criminal offense.

    Health practitioners (two needed) can already terminate a pregnancy beyond the 24 week, or whatever time-frame, period so the health and quality of life of the baby don't enter into the equation.
    (Source)
     
  19. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Staff Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    Oh, I didn't know that - sounds like @Nexxo's compromise is already enshrined in law. Good to know!

    If that's the case, and assuming it works as intended, dropping the limit for I-just-don't-want-a-baby pregnancies is less of an issue - though there are aspects contributory to a poor quality of life that aren't addressed in the quoted extract, in particular the birth of a child to a family which doesn't want it or can't afford it which will lead to considerable issues for the child.

    There are studies suggesting a link between ease of access to legalised abortion and crime rate, and I don't just mean the obvious "having an illegal abortion is a crime so legalising abortion gets those off the books" effect.
     
  20. Anfield

    Anfield Well-Known Member

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    16 core in Sept for $749 and you'll want 3733 Ram for optimum performance, there saved you the effort.

    Don't get me wrong, I understand that the point at which a pregnancy becomes potentially viable has massive ethical implications.

    For now at least however I wouldn't really advocate for lowering the limit though as 24 is on the very edge, there is an extreme drop off in viability when you go down to even just 23 weeks that medical science doesn't really have a way around.
    If you combine that with how rare such late abortions already are... I don't see much of an argument for lowering it by more than 1 week.
    Of course exceptions beyond the regular limit based on medical circumstances would have to be kept either way.

    The medical science surrounding the whole topic can of course change, so maybe schedule a once a decade big review of the science on the topic into the law or something.
     

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