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E.U: Leave or Stay? Your thoughts.

Discussion in 'Serious' started by TheBlackSwordsMan, 22 Feb 2016.

  1. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    No, Conservatives are convinced that leftists are naïve goodie-two-shoes at best and closet commies at worst, and that the electorate is not bright enough to rule itself (I tend to agree on that last one). They believe that they are the ruling class by right, because their forebears worked hard for it and proved their competence at it. Else they wouldn't be where they are (spot the circular reasoning: I deserve to be because I am).

    Politics, yo. MPs at the coal face may be idealists, but at the bottom of all political ambition (left and right) is the firm narcissistic belief that one knows best what's good for the people and the country. Self-serving attribution bias and ingroup-outgroup thinking takes it from there.
     
    Last edited: 20 Jun 2016
  2. Risky

    Risky Modder

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    Same again, Conservative are all Toffs always, never mind their actual background (Cameron is the first public school educated conservative leader since 1965).
     
  3. Pliqu3011

    Pliqu3011 all flowers in time bend towards the sun

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  4. Disequilibria

    Disequilibria Minimodder

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    Political parties are made up of competing factions and ideas.



    How I see tories is a distinction is between three separate groupings:


    1.
    A: Plutocratic Tories: expensive public school educated, unprincipled, say anything for power. literally think like nexxo is illustrating. Members Osborne, Cameron and Boris.

    B: Sociopathic tories: Are conservatives because they litterally don't sympathise or empathise with others because they are mentally incapable of doing so except if they want to understand how to play people. Members; Osborne, Boris, sajid javid, pritti patel. (I genuinely think cameron doesn't have any where near the sociopathic qualities to the degree of those listed)

    2.
    Authoritarian tories: happy to censor, ban and nanny state to get their values implemented. Members: Theresa May, Cameron.

    and

    3. (not saying people in these groups are right or not without significant faults merely they are better motivated)

    Principled aristocratic/inherited wealth tories: Public school, have strong beliefs not dropped for career convenience. Rees-mogg, zach goldsmith (Obviously uncomfortable using lynton crosby's mayoral campaign tactics and his campaign and stand on the recall bill). (do often lack an understanding of those born below their level of wealth/class because of lack of personal experience)

    State school tories: Conservative principled, born into middle class/working class . Despite often enacting or believing in policies that the left considers to hurt the poor and sometimes middle class genuinely believe what they are doing/ believe in would/could be better for people. Members: IDS, Portillo, David Davis, Gove.

    Classical Liberal Tories: while maybe believing in socially Conservative values; believe in the freedoms we should believe are fundamental (freedom of speech etc). Members: David Davis, Portillo.

    Problem with group 1 individuals is they are only in it for themselves and people like them.

    Problem with group 2 is these are the people who will take us on a long road to tyranny in one way or another (salami tactics). However Authoritarianism has really taken off on the left since the 1990s and labour contains more Authoritarians and useful idiots for those authoritarians than the Tories do.

    Problem with group 3 is that these people are often useful idiots for groups 1 and 2 however the right has long been used to the kind of authoritarianism that comes out of their own ranks so are more likely to see through it than their labour colleagues.

    Labour and the left in general have serious issues because this new infiltration of authoritarian values comes from very recent movements rather than the typically obvious marxism, or totalitarianism.

    Despite having always voted labour, there are more conservative MPs I find likeable, than labour MPs. (just to make a point this isn't to do with leave/remain stances of any of those MPs but to do with the regressive things they do under the banner of progressivism)
     
    Nexxo likes this.
  5. theshadow2001

    theshadow2001 [DELETE] means [DELETE]

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    I was more paraphrasing. But lets take a look at your actual words regarding extremist violence and not depend on my memory:

    Of course when its a right winger being the extremist its suddenly not a nutter being a nutter. It is now Farage's fault.

    Not only does that contradict the first quotation above, but when its right wing extremist violence you switch from its not the sermons to:
    Unfortunately when the topic involves something that hits close to home, violence around a referendum that you are more attached to, with real perceived consequences for you, you've ended up making the same sort of claims that you have dismissed from others in the past. That is what I meant when I said that you've made the same sort of flip just in the opposite direction.

    Given the above, it appears as though we are.
     
  6. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    Well, in the first quote I was responding to:

    And making a distinction between a mainstream religion and fundamentalist extremism.

    The second quote comes from a post where I basically argue that the Lee Rigby murderers were influenced by a whole bunch of personal tragedies and life history, which were influenced by an ongoing corrupt mainstream political narrative of us-vs-them, Western vs Muslim international conflict in the background. My argument was that those personal life events and this narrative was part of the problem much more than the firebrand sermons which planted the seed of violence. They prepared the field, and kept watering it afterwards so the seed could root and grow in the first place.

    The firebrand sermons are comparable to the fascist literature found at Mair's home: stuff that had to be sought out rather than came down to them automatically, so they were just the last link in a long chain of shaping, conditioning and channeling of rage. On reflection I should have said that it is not just the sermons. But their influence came late in the day.

    I did not blame Farage for Mair's actions, although I certainly think he hoped something violent would happen and planted the seed of the idea in the current ongoing corrupt political aggressive Brits-vs-immigrant narrative. Because that is what this referendum campaign became the focus of: a mainstream ongoing public narrative of nationalist hostility and paranoia, not just extremist sermons held in closed spaces to an audience who have already bought into extremist ideology. The latter works to overcome internal inhibitions, the former lowers societal restraint. And that has a lot more far-reaching influence.
     
    Last edited: 21 Jun 2016
  7. Corky42

    Corky42 Where's walle?

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    If you want to know the exact figures i found this site that seems to break it down country by country. :)

    Do you even know what the European Commission is? Have you really bought into that unelected BS being spewed out by the likes of Farage.

    The European Commission is the executive body, the body responsible for all the bothersome stuff MPs don't have the time or skills to do, things like making rules, regulations and laws that MPs don't have the legal training or time to do, all the paper work that gets presented to MPs in a nice comprehensible easy to understand package so the MP can make a decision.

    The European Commission is the same thing as Her Majesty's Civil Service, notice the "Her Majesty's" part? That means it's owned and run by an unelected head of state unlike the European Commission who elects a new president every 5 years, along with the other 28 departmental head of the executive body.

    When you get asked if you can name the president of the European Commission, or for that matter any of the people sitting on the European Commission board, ask yourself if you can also name anyone in the UK senior civil service.
     
    Last edited: 21 Jun 2016
  8. Risky

    Risky Modder

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    The European commission is effectively the EU cilil service. It has little real power other than to suggest and influence.

    The European Parliament thinks it should be in charge of everything as they have a democratic mandate. To do this they suggest spending more money on everything including themselves. Unfortunately for them the people of euro generally think it is a pointless waste of money and proceed to send to it whatever idiots annoy their own government of the day so has a lot of anti-EU, far left, far-right, green MEPs who are cordially ignored by the mainstream parties who want to get on with spending more money to show how important they are.

    The Council of Ministers hold all the real power as it is where national governments meet, argue, agree and disagree. Mercifully they don't leave to much to the other EU bodies.
     
  9. Corky42

    Corky42 Where's walle?

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    Even with the Council of Ministers the ordinary legislative procedure normally still applies, without having looked into the finer details i think the Council of Ministers can only overrule parliament after the second reading and only by qualified majority.

    I tried to find some evidence on what percentage of decision are take by the council verses parliament but i came up empty, i remember hearing on TV that something like 90% of the decisions are made by parliament but I've not found anything to corroborate that number.
     
  10. Risky

    Risky Modder

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    The parliament isn't allowed to decide much I importance but they occasionally manage to interfere.
     
  11. Corky42

    Corky42 Where's walle?

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    That's not what the information I've read says.
    They used to have very little power but that's changed in recent years.
    AFAIK The 2009 Treaty of Lisbon cede more control to parliament.
     
  12. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    Very good analysis. :thumb:
     
  13. Tynecider

    Tynecider Since ZX81

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    "Bothersome stuff MP's don't have the time or skills to do"...talk about spew!
    This is exactly what MP's elected by people should be doing and should be qualified to do, The most elitist comment I've heard so far and by part, part of the problem.
    Crikey, Love or hate Farage, His words and experience hold a lot more weight that yours do or ever will. I stopped reading after that, well done.

    You oppose anything that isn't pro-EU, Even common sense things that a large portion of the community show concern for you have a "better than thou" / "top-down" pro-EU answer.

    If you building a case for yourself to join the EU gravy train you are doing a fine job, Or are you already employed/educated by the EU.

    "Hey Charlie, I think I've found one!"
     
  14. Krazeh

    Krazeh Minimodder

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    Please tell me you don't actually think our MPs write legislation themselves?
     
  15. Tynecider

    Tynecider Since ZX81

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    No, But a vote leave will give the electorate a chance to build something new.
    Of all the arguments for leave and remain, Personally I am voting to leave because I do believe that something much better can be built in place of what we have in Westminster and in Brussels.

    Who says we can't have a system were people can elect qualified people who are willing to put their skills behind their mouth and pen hand and hold some responsibility and more importantly accountability. A direct democracy instead of this garbage we have now.
     
  16. theshadow2001

    theshadow2001 [DELETE] means [DELETE]

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    That doesn't make any sense. Membership of the EU isn't preventing people from restructuring their government.
     
  17. Krazeh

    Krazeh Minimodder

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    How will it? It's not going to change our current government or voting system.

    Maybe it can, but I fail to see how leaving the EU will achieve that. It's not going to change our government, nor is it going to enable us to have any involvement in EU reforms.

    Well, aside from the fact that it would be unworkable to have MPs do the work that is currently done by the civil service (there's simply not enough time in the day, even if they wanted to), even that would not be a true democracy. And it wasn't that long ago that we were given a vote on changing the voting system to be more representative. How did that turn out? What makes you think leaving the EU would cause this change you're looking for?
     
  18. Archtronics

    Archtronics Minimodder

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  19. Corky42

    Corky42 Where's walle?

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    Putting aside the ad hominem attack are you seriously saying you expect MP's to have the same level of knowledge on an issues as someone whose spent their entire career studying it?

    I mean what skills would you say the PM needs, (s)he needs to make decision on everything from foreign policy to health, from agriculture to transport, from education to security, MP's aren't elected for their knowledge on a subject they're elected on their judgment, on their ability to lead a team, on their ability to make the right choices.

    Wow more ad hominem attacks, it seems i have more common sense than most people who support leaving the EU, based on a YouGov poll %46 of people who support leaving the EU are already convinced the referendum is rigged, what's even less sensible is that almost a third think MI5 is in cahoots with the Government to stop Britain leaving the European Union. :rolleyes:

    Yea because Westminster's really adept when it comes to change isn't it, how long have we had our present political system, if it's not changed significantly since 1801 what leads you to believe it's going to change anytime soon?

    Like you could find enough qualified people in each field who a) Wanted a role in public services, b) Had legal degrees in that respective field (if you're going to be making laws you best have one of those), c) Wanted to take a massive pay cut, d) had managerial skills.

    Oh and while you're at it invent a time machine so MP's can not only talk to their constituents but also spend thousands of man hours writing all that legal stuff that goes into making new laws.
     
    Last edited: 21 Jun 2016
  20. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    As soon as I read that, I decided that there is no further point debating with you. Do you even know anything about government?

    I mean, Jesus H. Christ!

    Seriously, stop. You are talking unicorns now. You are in fantasy land. Your argument comes from a complete and total lack of understanding of government.

    But underneath it all it reveals that you think this is some kind of grass roots political revolution. It is not. It's not even an election. It's not even legally binding. Wise the **** up.
     
    Last edited: 21 Jun 2016

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