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E.U: Leave or Stay? Your thoughts.

Discussion in 'Serious' started by TheBlackSwordsMan, 22 Feb 2016.

  1. damien c

    damien c Mad FPS Gamer

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    I don't understand the issue here.

    I might be mistaken here but from what I have seen mentioned about all this is as follows:

    EU Nationals were coming to the UK to pick fruit etc, living on the site or 2+ people in a room big enough for 1 and being paid on average less than minimum wage, whilst paying no tax etc?

    EU Nationals were coming to the UK to drive lorries and being put up in sub-standard hotels etc for the minimum wage for lorry driving?

    EU Nationals were being used for something that requires Qualifications, but they didn't have the Qualifications resulting in more profit for the company?


    Now because Farmers etc cannot get "Cheap" labour from the EU, they are having to employ people from within Britain and pay at least minimum wage, and not be able to charge rent etc for the people living on site.

    Lorry drivers are being paid fairly whilst also being where required put up in hotel's that are of a better standard that a low quality dog kennel.

    Due to Covid and the lockdowns, some people who were picking fruit etc have actually had time to learn new skill's meaning they don't need to work picking fruit etc, and are now going in to higher paid work meaning they earn more and actually pay more in tax.

    Obviously shortages etc are not good, but surely people being paid fairly and treated better than a animal is something we all want or are you saying you are happy for people to be paid pennies and treated worse than animals if it means you can save 1p on a packet of fruit or avoid a "possible" delay?

    Personally I wouldn't want to go picking fruit for hours each day being paid less than minimum wage, and certainly would not want to be forced to live on a farm in a shack to avoid paying rent on a house or cramming myself, in a single bed flat with potentially up to 10 other people for less than minimum wage.

    I have no problems with people coming here to work from other countries, but not if it means they are being paid less than they should and treated worse than animals, I don't care where they come from they should be treated the same as if they were a British Citizen regardless of what job they are doing or where they come from.

    As I say I may be mistaken but that article just say's to me that companies are more interested in the bottom line by not paying and treating employees as humans, and now are suffering because they cannot get away with it anymore.
     
  2. Anfield

    Anfield Multimodder

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    The shareholders would have the heads of the companies management on a pike if they spent money treating workers as humans.

    So companies will just import more stuff to fill the gaps (effectively moving the jobs abroad) rather than improve working conditions here (which is why we "need" a trade deal with the 'Muricans to give us cheap chlorinated chicken).

    To actually fix the problem we'd have to dig far deeper and address the human problem of greed...
     
  3. fix-the-spade

    fix-the-spade Multimodder

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    That doesn't jive with my experience of fruit/veg pickers in Boston. The ones I knew were mostly Polish men in their 20s-30s and they treated it more like a logging camp. Yes 10 guys in a four/five bedroom house was common but that spread the rent out. They were all in the country and employed above board and they made extremely good money. I knew a couple who were making £300 per day because they worked like machines. They would come and work in the UK for 25-30 weeks each year and go home where the £20k/year they were making after tax paid for a house, a car and lots of time off with the family back in Poland.

    The pay in those kinds of jobs is target based, work hard, get good pay, fart about, get paid bugger all. The whole 'fifty people in a house with no papers, no pay and no rights,' thing is an outlier and will continue post Brexit. The big farms down there are associated with massive corporations that have no interest in hiring illegal labour, especially when the police down there take such a keen interest in it.

    The problem now is that those workers are gone. British people won't fill the gap because they won't turn up. It's not about the money, you simply can't get enough to Brits to turn out for 4am starts and boring, physical labour.
     
  4. perplekks45

    perplekks45 LIKE AN ANIMAL!

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    This. 100%. We had the same issue when Germany tried to not use Polish workers for the asparagus harvest one year. Well, how about a 50+% price hike for asparagus because there simply wasn't enough being harvested? The fields were full, but without people actually digging them out they just rotted away. The year after Polish workers were allowed back and prices went back to normal.
     
  5. Anfield

    Anfield Multimodder

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    Money is definitely a huge part of it.
    You have to remember that a short term income isn't good enough, you also need a year round guaranteed number of work hours or you are f**ked.

    Where do you go to get your money from when the week / month of harvest work on Farm A is done?

    Back to the normal job you used to have? The company you used to work for got 300+ applications for your old job the day they advertised it.
    Just get another normal job? Good luck convincing some company that you'll make them your life, family and religion when you have a bunch of unsteady short term jobs in your CV. And even if you manage it against the odds you could easily end u with a month or two between jobs where you have to survive on savings.
    Benefits? You'll have to start all over again including all the waiting periods (because they kicked you out of the system as you breached the max permitted number of work hours by like day 2).
    So you better enjoy trespassing in the local forest to forage for food...

    And where do you go for accommodation when the week / month of harvest work on Farm A is done?

    Just rent some place? No legit landlord is going to touch you with a 30 foot pole unless you are in "proper" employment.
    Just buy some place? Banks pass around hot potatoes with more dignity than they'll treat you with when you want a mortgage without a "proper" career.
    Social Housing? Unless you are either elderly, disabled or have small kids you go to the bottom of the priority list.
    So you better pray Mom will let you move back into the basement, oh wait she probably doesn't live near Farm B where you'll end up working next year, so might as well get used to rough sleeping.

    Honestly, the more you think about the practicalities of it you'll realize that the way UK society functions is incompatible with the concept of "make do with odd jobs here and there, even if they pay min wage or more".

    The only reason it is even survivable for foreigners is because they exploit the differences in costs of living, if they lived here year round on UK costs of living they couldn't do it either.
     
    Last edited: 12 Jul 2021
  6. Bloody_Pete

    Bloody_Pete Technophile

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    I guess the only thing that makes it viable is van living, but that needs around £10k for the van and conversion, then you need upkeep and a place to go etc. And it would be ruined if the government passed laws curbing it...
     
  7. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    There is no issue --just the logical consequences of Brexit, which are turning out not to be exactly as promised:

    Or in Rees-Mogg's since deleted Tweet:
    But let's not pretend that Brexit was a protest vote against the exploitation of immigrant workers. They work hard doing jobs essential to the UK economy, and then get lambasted for it. "They're stealing our jobs" that no Brit wants to do. "They're depressing wages" of jobs that no Brit wants to do, even for a higher wage. Fact is, nobody who voted for Brexit worried about us poor, exploited immigrants. We were just a convenient scapegoat for their own inadequacy. "Like, I would be in a job if it weren't for those pesky immigrants, guv...". Well, it's over to them now. Let's see how they get on.

    Your government has already made up its mind, though. Here's what Priti Patel, Dominic Raab, Liz Truss, Kwasi Kwarteng and Chris Skidmore said in Britannia Unchained (2012):
    [​IMG]

    This is ********, of course, but that's what your government thinks. Expect more Universal Credit cuts to "incentivise" people back to work. And consider that this, too, depresses wages.
     
    Last edited: 12 Jul 2021
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  8. Anfield

    Anfield Multimodder

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    Van living? Don't even need laws to curb it as most would abandon the idea the first time someone asks for proof of address for example to open a bank account...

    That kind of stuff already gets hard when you are living with someone else in regular accommodation and the bills are in their name rather than yours.
     
  9. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: 15 Jul 2021
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  10. Valo

    Valo Minimodder

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    This is not true. EU nationals were entitled to the same protections and requirements as British worker. It's the invisible hand of the market (plus british reluctance to do seasonal jobs, because well... it's seasonal and requires you to move around)
     
  11. Anfield

    Anfield Multimodder

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    Just got to love how UK politicians still ignore the obvious:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ally-rewrite-northern-ireland-brexit-protocol

    Negotiate a UK wide solution and the border in the Irish Sea along with the NI Protocol will go *poof* completely...
     
  12. VipersGratitude

    VipersGratitude Multimodder

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    "Theoretical fiction has it that constitutional liberty is the rule and its suspension an exception, but the whole history of English rule in Ireland shows that a state of emergency is the rule and that the application of the constitution is the exception." - Jenny Marx, 1870
     
  13. Mr_Mistoffelees

    Mr_Mistoffelees The Rotary Cat.

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    That's as likely, as Boris Johnson telling us live in a press conference, that he is a complete and utter useless tw@t, has asked the Queen to dissolve parliament and, he is resigning as the leader of the Tory party forthwith.

    If only...
     
  14. VipersGratitude

    VipersGratitude Multimodder

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    A UK-wide solution would require a border in Ireland, forbidden under the Good Friday Agreement. If the EU were to join the UK in ignoring its international obligations and place the border in Ireland you'd find the IRA would starting making some UK city centres go 'poof' again too.
     
  15. Anfield

    Anfield Multimodder

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    *Norway has entered the chat*

    But ever since Mrs Hostile Environment insisted that such solutions are worse than 17 super communisms because the UK would have to follow some rules no Tory has had the balls to admit that fiddling around the margins of the NI Protocol will never replace a proper UK wide deal.
     
  16. liratheal

    liratheal Sharing is Caring

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    It's almost like everyone who said this'd be totes fine and easy is a gigantic pus bubble growing haphazardly on an equally gigantic turd of an idea.
     
    Nexxo likes this.
  17. theshadow2001

    theshadow2001 [DELETE] means [DELETE]

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    Here's an unhappy chappy. Its kind of weird that if your business model revolves around under paying people from the continent, you'd think you wouldn't vote for the thing that would make it hard to come in from the continent. Oh well. I assume the market will sort itself out. Wages / Prices will go up, demand and sales will go down some business will shut and an equilibrium of supply and demand will even out in hospitality.
     
  18. perplekks45

    perplekks45 LIKE AN ANIMAL!

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    Because less competitors in any market is a good thing for the customer, right?
     
  19. theshadow2001

    theshadow2001 [DELETE] means [DELETE]

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    No that's not good for the customer.
     
  20. perplekks45

    perplekks45 LIKE AN ANIMAL!

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    Sounds like you weren't overly concerned about this, that's all. :p:
     

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