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E.U: Leave or Stay? Your thoughts.

Discussion in 'Serious' started by TheBlackSwordsMan, 22 Feb 2016.

  1. Anfield

    Anfield Multimodder

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    And laughing at them from behind the safety of the internet is unfortunately the most effective form of opposition left in the UK...
     
  2. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Lover of bit-tech Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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  3. theshadow2001

    theshadow2001 [DELETE] means [DELETE]

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    Well if it costs money to keep positive stock on hand, then negative stock must be making them a fortune. :lol:
     
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  4. Ending Credits

    Ending Credits Bunned

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    I dunno, the disruption of leaving a large trading block was always going to cause significant short term disruption, and it doesn't take much of a brain to work that out. Honestly, if anything the current level of disruption is pretty mild given everything going on.

    I think the real question over Brexit is, do you consider that in the long term future you believe the UK would be better off outside the EU, and are you confident enough/believe the difference is big enough to warrant all the short term disruption. Personally my answer would be no, and I think most people would say no, but I do think a reasonable person could believe otherwise.

    Of course, not much of the campaigning focused on the long term, and I don't doubt that a lot of Brexit support relied on fantasies of magic GDP jumps on day one, which is clearly fantastical.

    tl;dr the people who claimed that none of this would happen are the nutters (and the ones who cling onto Brexit fantasies no matter what happens). People who can honestly say "yes, this is bad, but I anticipated this, and I believe in the long term we'll be better off" are the sane ones.
     
  5. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Lover of bit-tech Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    Can't say I've come across too many of those. Oh, I've seen plenty who say that they anticipated this and in the long term we'll be better off, sure, but every single one of 'em was singing a different tune before the vote - the Sunlit Uplands and all that.

    Granted, my sample is skewed: most of the pro-Brexit types I encounter are politicians and other liars, as most of the people I know personally were anti-Brexit all along.
     
  6. Anfield

    Anfield Multimodder

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    Maybe there is a slim chance that if we had competent and sane politicians in charge it could be turned into something positive in the long run...

    But with the rabble currently inhabiting Westminster and No 10?
    "We couldn't make Brexit a success because the sea was closed while driving to do an eye test, but here have some China style oppression of the right to protest".
     
  7. Mr_Mistoffelees

    Mr_Mistoffelees The Bit-Tech Cat. New Improved Version.

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    Cameron didn't make the effort to run a strong, pro-EU campaign. He is on record saying he didn't believe the British people would ever vote to leave.
     
  8. perplekks45

    perplekks45 LIKE AN ANIMAL!

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    Brexit is a perfect example of people being too sure that humanity on average is not stupid and/or easily manipulated.
     
  9. VipersGratitude

    VipersGratitude Multimodder

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    I haven't noticed any empty shelves here in N. Ireland (the region hardest hit by covid). I wonder why that is... :oldconfused:
     
  10. Byron C

    Byron C Ripping a line of speed off a sh**-encrusted bog

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    And therein lies the core issue with Brexit: Brexit doesn't mean the same thing to everyone. Most people who voted for Brexit knew exactly what they wanted from it, it's just that their version of Brexit wasn't necessarily the same Brexit that other people voted for...

    I do think there is still a philosophical debate to be had about whether being part of the EU is really the right thing for the UK. The problem, however, is that in order to have that debate the participants have to argue and act in good faith. We now have 5 years of evidence to demonstrate that we are not willing to argue or act in good faith, which makes that debate an utterly pointless exercise.
     
  11. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    To be fair, lies are simple and seductive; truth is complex and messy. And it takes infinitely more energy and effort to disprove lies than it takes to tell them.

    Cummings basically turned the question "Remain or Leave?" into "Are you happy with the way things are right now, or not?". He cleverly turned the dialogue into one of a bunch of half-drunk men in the pub putting the world to rights over drinks. "Now if I was in charge...". Everybody could project their own fantasy on Brexit. It was all hubris and fantasy. No fantasy too wild. No ambition too great... Except it wasn't just talking **** in the pub; that vote would have real consequences. And now here's the hangover. A lot of defensive rationalisation and moving the goal posts, but in the end reality catches up, and is complex and messy.

    And of course when Vote Leave blamed the EU for everything that was in fact the result of 10+ years of Tory austerity rule, it was very hard for Cameron to challenge that; he could hardly say: "No, that wasn't the EU, that was us".
     
    Last edited: 26 Aug 2021
  12. ElThomsono

    ElThomsono Multimodder

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    :blah:
     
  13. walle

    walle Minimodder

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    It's called barnum statements. It simply means that what ever is being said means something different to everyone, it's not an agreed upon definition.

    Politicians use them all the time because they are effective and they sound good.

    Example.
    Obamas "change" or Trumps "make America great again"
    Well I like to see change, ok cool, now what kind of change, because change can be both a positive or negative thing...etc

    It's never really specified which leaves plenty of room for everyone to have their own version of "change" and "....great again"

    ...or in this case, Brexit.
     
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  14. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Lover of bit-tech Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    Our Glorious Leaders have decided to let the furriners back in to drive the 100,000 lorries that are sitting idle, just like they said they definitely weren't going to do - and all it took was a fuel shortage. And food shortages. And import/export problems. And...

    Well, anyway. Now let's just see if any of 'em want to come back...
     
  15. mrlongbeard

    mrlongbeard Multimodder

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    Probs not, you'd have thought they'd have filled the EU driver shortage on their way through back home though
     
  16. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Lover of bit-tech Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    Huh, you're not wrong. Hadn't seen that it was part of a broader problem - apparently Poland was short 124,000 drivers in 2020, twice the UK's number at the time. "Ageing workforce and insufficient numbers of new recruits due to working conditions and image issues" apparently.

    Wonder what the answer is? Massive wage boost (which will, of course, make everything that travels in a lorry more expensive - which is to say, err... everything) while someone rushes through fully-autonomous vehicles that can do the job for us?
     
  17. mrlongbeard

    mrlongbeard Multimodder

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    Wage boost, benefits boost, facilities boost etc etc.

    Either way there isn't, and never was, going to be an overnight fix.
    If everything gets more expensive, we, as a nation, will have eat less, or eat more local, which I don't have a problem with, but then I've got a comfortable job and don't want for much (and already try and source as much locally as I can stand / afford).

    For those on the breadline, gig economy, benefits etc. it's a whole different ball of wax, 'a rising tide raises all ships' but needs a unified cohesive effort, the likes of which we're unlikely to see any time soon
     
  18. theshadow2001

    theshadow2001 [DELETE] means [DELETE]

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    So are people actually experiencing shortages at the pumps and in supermarkets, or are the news reports I'm seeing somewhat overblown?
     
  19. ElThomsono

    ElThomsono Multimodder

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    Last Friday I bought a sandwich from a forecourt that had no fuel due to driver shortages, today I saw a massive queue comin g back from our local petrol station. The Bournemouth Echo was showing similar photos from plenty of others in the area.

    So aye, same panic buying that causes a shortage that we've all seen before.
     
  20. mrlongbeard

    mrlongbeard Multimodder

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    Panic buying idiots and the the self fulfilling prophecy
     
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