E.U: Leave or Stay? Your thoughts.

You can't have both, you can't be a member of a free trade area without accepting limitations on your national market, to do so would be suicide.

Just take a free trade area of 2 countries for example, lets call them Remainia and Brexitvania, they've both agreed not to impose quotes or tariffs on each other, they even signed a legally binding treaty to that effect.

Now it's 20 years down the line and Brexitvania's economic policy has lead to high unemployment rates, people are getting a bit angry and can't afford to feed their family, Brexitvania's government decides it's going to have a radical 5 year plan to get people working, to get food on the table, they borrow money on the international markets and plough it into steel manufacturing giving everyone jobs and full bellies.

Because of the free trade agreement between Brexitvania and Remainia all this steel start to flood Remainia's markets and they're not to happy about it as Brexitvania is selling steel for less than it cost to make, Remainia's steel plants just can't compete and within a few years they've all closed, thousands have lost their jobs, people are going hungry.

Remainia's government has a great idea, they put all those ex-steel works and all that steel into rearming their military so they can wave a big stick at Brexitvania if they flood the market and put more of their population out of work, sadly Brexitvania's more worried about it's own population and push Remainia a little to far...

Sovereignty is just the name given to the control of your own affairs on a national level, no nation on earth has 100% control over their own affairs, even North Korea, probably the most sovereign nation on earth, doesn't have 100% control over it's own affairs, it depends heavily on China, it can't just launch a nuke without repercussions, it can't feed it's own people.

Having control over your own affairs is great but when you can't do what you want because external forces prevent you from doing something control means nothing.

 

Scottish UK Referendum: We're better together.
EU Referendum: We want our sovereignty!

 

I feel like Jurgen the German at the moment.

 

Why would a single super state formed of democratic countries become undemocratic? Could you not apply the same idea to the UK with the seat of power being Westminster? I'm unfamiliar with how much power devolution gives to the other countries of the UK, but I can't imagine North England being fully in agreement with what South England want.

Personally I'm not fussed about where the laws come from, so long as the laws make sense. Terrible laws are terrible regardless of the location of power.

 

And there's the problem right there. Reality is much more complicated than that,no matter how much you wish it otherwise.

 

The fantasy is that if your terrible laws come from your local government, you can challenge them more easily by holding your government to account and voting them out.

Thos does, of course, depend on an informed electorate understanding its system of government, and not being a bunch of emotional, malleable retards.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...eu-geert-wilders-netherlands?CMP=share_btn_tw

Geert Wilders is making noise again about leaving the EU but , unlike the UK with the FPTP system , they use PR , so when they say 20% want to leave the EU , it really is 20%

 

And that's why free trade and control of your national market are mutual exclusive, you can't have one without the other.

No it's really not, it matters not if you do something because you chose to or if someone said you have to, the end result is still the same.

 

He wouldn't lol.

Someone I know put it best 48% of voters are butt hurt the rest of the voters are super happy. And 28% don't give a crap.

 

Sorry you've lost me, you say "tariffs and taxes are very much needed to protect your national economy" but that's not a free market.

You can't say "People have no problem with the free trade, but they want to keep control of their national market" the two are mutual exclusive, you can't have free trade without controls being placed on your national economy, as demonstrated in the little story i told.

You can't keep control of your national market while at the same time not controlling your national market.

No it's not, if national politicians chose to limit the countries carbon emissions or jolly old foreigners make them do it doesn't make the slightest difference, it just makes you *feel* like your in control of your own destiny.

So it's nothing more than having that feel good factor.

 

Most of people who voted for leave lost too. Because the reasons they voted for will be impossible to get if UK wants to be in EEA. "Limited immigration, no payments to EU, no need to implement EU directives" - opposite of these are requirements of EEA membership.

 

It would have been highly impressive if Cameron had of come out and said along the lines of, I am disappointed with this vote result but I am the prime minster of the united kingdom and my job has not changed, I have the knowledge to continue to run this country, I have the commitment to seeing this country prosper.


By Cameron leaving it shows BIAS, he is not meant to be bias, he is meant to be the prime minster for the united kingdom.


The vote had two options, the result should not have a sub concern that if we vote in or out he may leave, again be it he wanted us out or in.

I think its wrong for him to have said he is leaving, it shows his approach to his job actually was fundamentally wrong.

What we the united kingdom want is what he has to do, he should not take his rattle and throw it out of the pram just because it was not the result he wanted.

That all said this is reality and its understandable, but by the book he should take his lumps, pull back his sleeves and work on tirelessly.


Boris reminds me of visually of Winston Churchill which is kind of an old look for 2016


I don't know if we even have the kind of high level government that can take back the roles from Brussels ?


England should start thinking about putting a flipping national fund together, buying back gold, paying off its debts, investing in creating the worlds leading place for Business to operate outside of the second tier Europe.

England should be the jewel out side of Europe but also close enough and available to it.

If we are going to leave the EU, we need to start thinking like this.

 

junckers wants the UK gone completely - Merkel, not so much. I don't think EEA will happen either or EFTA - it`ll be CETA based

 

Marine le pen has said if she is voted in as president she will take france to the polls over frexit

 

I have a feeling the UK will not look for a EEA deal or any others. Going the Canada approach is one that's been considered and would be the choice of many. We could even get better terms than what Canada got according to most financial people.

Free movement is the biggest issue, along side actually paying towards the EU. Germany hopes we want EEA as it makes there job so much easier.

The big EU countries hope we come running asking for a easy deal like EEA, as they need us as much as we need them. Problem for the EU is getting the smaller countries to play ball who have little need to help us and want free movement to be kept at all costs.

EEA is a leave with no hassle approach can not see it been entertained before other options have been attempted. I still expect Germany Holland France to make a play to keep UK in the EU. With some concessions.

 

junckers was a USofE which as of Thursday we in the Uk certainly wont be part of. And that's the issue - if france and Germany try to make a separate deal with the UK , the EC might well do everything to veto it.

90 days visa free and eligibility based immigration

 

WTF do you think a market is then? FYI it's not where you buy your fruit and veg.

You said "People have no problem with the free trade, but they want to keep control of their national market." In other words you said, People have no problem with the...

but they want to keep control of their...

You can't have the interchange of goods and services unhindered by high tariffs, nontariff barriers, or quotas while at the same time retaining control of your domestic marketplace for goods and services, well actually you can but as i said it would be suicide.

No i don't get it, maybe that's because I'm a pragmatist, maybe because i don't think feeling good about ourselves is going to keep food on the table and a roof over our heads, maybe because the UK has just voted for nothing rather than something, they've just voted against remaining without even knowing what's going to replace it.

I could understand voting the way they have if there was something, anything, to replace what they were voting against but there's not, they voted against plan A without having or knowing what plan B is.

Well at least i can sleep well at night knowing peoples feelings are going to keep me in work, keep money in my pocket, and food on the table.

Forgive me for being more than a little concerned about those sort of trivial things, especially when there's been utter silence from the people supporting leave on what they're going to actually do about those nitty gritty everyday things and all I'm hearing is we'll get through it on good feelings and rainbows.