This should be fun. I'm going to start something always controversial and demand someone explain to me the relative downsides of voting for the different parties. I take very little interest in politics other than at surface level or wot others tell me I should do, mainly because I see very little change and don't therefore give too much of a dog's egg. However, it seems things are no longer at the traditional two-party state and Reform is apparently leading the way in my normally Conservative area. So in terms that a five year-old (my mental age at the moment) can understand and without degenerating into the usual mud-slinging, what are the actual differences/pros/cons between the respective (ahem) cons and their clubs and where's that site that asks you questions then tells you who you should vote for? I found this one, but it's old. My limited thinking and concentration span have gotten me this far: Tories like rich people and might not tax things too much but don't actually change a lot and arguably make it all worse through siphoning off corruption funds Labour hate rich people and will give everything you own to the poor, who don't even have to bother to find work, but are also staffed by incompetents who again change very little (other than the standard "undo what that other lot did" agenda) Reform are thinly-veiled anarchists but voting for them might be interesting to watch and might be the shock the country (and people?) needs Greens have admirable intent but aren't likely to be put into a position of any power, so a wasted vote Lib Dems are exactly as the pronunciation of their name sounds and deserve a seat near the window where their tongues will reach I don't think any others bear mentioning too much unless there's a realistic option I know nothing about Real-world comparisons rather than hyper-egotistical inflated opinions obviously more useful and thus welcome. I've done the latter above, for my part, so am after something different .
You can watch it rather than actually live it by looking at how MAGA has eroded democracy and made life harder in the US. That's not an opinion btw, that's objective observation.
Fair point. Are they pretty much the same idealistically then? Because that side of the pond does make me laugh at their misfortune, on the sole basis "that would never happen here". Ahem. I did the quiz (tried to edit my post but I think you beat me to posting and it didn't go through) and results are here. I fail to understand why one lot of answers are ALL positive and the rest are ALL negative. But then I probably didn't read all the directions 'cos of interest/attention span.
I think just the five mentioned. I threw everything away as it came through the door, but Reform sneakily addressed theirs to me in person, so I got tricked into opening it and then thought I might as well have a look.
so from there's it's who is the current incumbent... and are you ok with how the [assume council] is currently operating? if so vote for the incumbent party if not, which of the remaining parties, based on your impression of them locally and nationally would do a better job/a job more aligned to your worldview.
Reform are thinly-veiled facists not anarchists. They’re about as far opposite from an anarchist as you can get. They’ve got some religious fundies I’m the mix too, women’s place is at home, England is a religious country (census disagrees) and all that ****. Greens are trying to be what Labour should be, but they’ve also got a bunch of idiots running for MP, such as a couple of years ago one of the local candidates was someone who wants to devote NHS funding to ‘alternative’ medicine. And I don’t just mean herbs and acupuncture, I mean ‘crystal healing’. Your mileage may vary locally whether your candidate is worth supporting. You didn’t mention UKIP, you might not have a local candidate anymore, but they recently adopted a Nazi symbol as their logo https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ukip-logo-iron-cross-nazi-symbol-b2899588.html Conservatives- Badenoch is a ****ing idiot let’s hope she never becomes PM. Labour, honestly better than Reform or Conservatives especially under Badenoch. Even if they did have to appoint Mandelson in some kind of favour-owed deal. Lib Dems try hard and get my vote but it’s unlikely they will ever be relevant or get to do any good because they’re unlikely to get a majority, meaning they’ll have to pander to whoever in a minority government. Farage started UKIP and brought all those facists together. Then when people started calling them out, Farage nobbed off and started Reform… to bring facists together before we realised they are. The last thing we want is Reform though. So if you’re planning a tactical vote to avoid the worst possible outcome, vote for whoever will keep Reform out.
Yeah, fair point re: "anarchists" - I was using the term in the same way as "hoover" (lower case) as in "those wanting to disrupt stuff", but once you said that, I remember that's also a bona fide political leaning. I think we currently have Tories, but they're obviously cack - the potholes are still here, military spending hasn't changed (I have friends who could have done with the funding), veteran support doesn't seem to have improved, the RNLI are still private, infrastructure nationally is still poor (although Trainline works well and I've just discovered the Elizabeth Line is actually quite useful), the NHS is underfunded and overworked, the legal system is corrupt as all fk, I appear to be the only person in the UK not in receipt of millions in dodgy backhanders and the list goes on. So I don't really want to vote for them again just because everyone else is. Of the remainder, they've all got valid points aligned to my worldview (since they often repeat themselves and/or all say the same opposite thing to the incumbent) but they also all have some really odd/bad stuff going on. It's like choosing "next least bad" versus "appropriate for the job". Sigh. It seems here, the only ones with a shot of ousting the Tories are Reform. But in a way I'd rather (non-crystal healing) Greens for a change. Give 'em a chance. In a way, I think they should all get a chance of sorts. I just don't know enough about their underhand, off-the-record shenanigans to even form a decision. Fascism didn't work out so well in the mid-20th for many people, so that's not a bold idea. If they'll also align with Trump, that's a No. But from the red corner, Starmer is at least standing up to Trump re: the Falklands. By the way, what colour are Reform adopting if blue, red, green and yellow are gone? Haven't heard much about Greens' approach other than the environmental, no building on green zones stuff. No idea about tax etc.. Think their "no increased council tax" sounds...erm...sound. But is there any advantage to having a local Green dude if they don't get seats in govt? Can he still push Green policies locally, or does he then just not get funding from the top? I forgot about UKIP. I thought they'd merged into Reform or something. In fairness, that stuff about logos is always sketchy - the swastika still is a spiritual symbol across a few beliefs. But agreed, you can tell when someone's pulling a fast one, especially if we already know the symbol (I'd argue the swastika was bit niche till popularised by the right) - doesn't that "iron" cross appear in a few places? Independent, purveyors of fine skate trucks, have arguably stepped slightly close, but no-one's pulling them apart that I know of. But then they skate, so that's rad. Burning crosses etc. possibly not so much. I don't think we have a UKIP person though. Don't know Badenoch much (see: "attention span/limited awareness" issue) but assume she has the same beliefs as the current mob, otherwise she wouldn't be leading them. In fact, other than Labour, who I heard tell recently were actually the new Tory party and the Tories don't know quite what they are (might have been on this site somewhere, thinking about it), has anybody actually changed their stance on anything at all over the recent years? I can't in all good conscience vote Labour just because I never have and any time I do see them on the news it's through ineptitude or Corbyn. And Lib Dems, I share your view - wasted vote, on the face of it. It really is a shame we can't vote for individual policies, rather than parties. More like a "what shall we do this year?" rather than a "who shall we let decide what happens this year?" sort of do. You could action that locally, because potholes might be different everywhere, but also nationally ie. NHS. [Side note for a laugh - something in the garden got into my eye over the weekend so I've just squirted some gel into it and now I can taste the gel in my throat...interesting...]
It's two different doors into the same club. Added The Cross Pattée predates National Socialism with about a 'minute'. It was used by the German Knights Order during the crusades then later used by the German Prussians and these days by the German military. It is not a symbol of National Socialism anymore the national flag of England would be a symbol of the EDL.
They want people to think they're anarchists. Edgy. Going to shake things up. Because that's like "make america great again". It's all just marketing ********. They're not going to do any of that. They're going to do what they've always done: make themselves richer and make the world a worse place for anyone who isn't a rich white male. Green party members vote for Green party policies and Green party initiatives. If they get enough, they can influence stuff. In theory. Otherwise they try to influence things in exchange for votes, slip in some changes that are closer to what they want. Yeah as with the swastika it has had other meanings first. https://symbolsage.com/what-is-the-iron-cross-symbol-2/ Hard to argue that Nazism didn't sully both and that many in the modern times are not going to be aware of history, and just associate with Nazis. She's thicker than two short planks and has some fairly shitty personal stances on stuff.
Locally and personally... Labour [incumbents]... I can not and will not vote for the current incumbent on a personal level. The local council imo is a shitshow and, as he is is leader of it, it's on him. And the wider party have been in power locally for my entire life. So it's also on them as a party, irrespective of what I think of the party's actions in Westminster. Reform I expect to do depressingly well given the amount of Saturday Monument Nutters and gammony flag shagger types live locally. So any decision I make will have one eye on limiting the damage those clowns can do. At least they've picked candidates that actually live in the country this time. Conservatives locally are just Reform in denial [though so are some local Labour tbf]. Lib-dems currently form what little opposition there is to Labour on the local council. Beyond that... *shrugs* Greens, based on the candidates I have interacted with, I wouldn't trust to tie their own shoes regardless of what I think of their stated goals or the viability thereof. And then there's a couple of uber socailist 'the sky being blue is a tory conspiracy' types who can barely get their own families/friends to vote for them.
I’m convinced that Liz Truss’ accidental market crash wasn’t an accident at all and she and some people she knows made bank from stock market manipulation. Who needs chance when you can buy a prime minister and have them **** it up royally? There’s no good choices which is why everyone is so disillusioned. But there’s some terrible choices. Like Reform.
This is pretty much where I'm at - the least worst option. That's why I think my idea of voting for individual policies rather than parties is by far and away the bestest idea ever. Now we just need a way to implement it. So with this bit, my local Green chap raises "No building on this particular zone" as well as "No increase in council tax" - does one get voted on locally at council level (building) and the other one (national council tax increases) he raises with his boss in Westminster, who then tables it at Commons (or wherever) and they run around yelling at each other to vote it through, maybe swapping their votes on a Tory bill for Tory votes on their own bill, then it might get passed and that counts as a Green victory for that particular point?
This is what happens to a degree in Switzerland, they have a lot of referenda. Plus, if you remember our last referendum, they will rerun them if it is clear that the public did not have all of the available information to hand on which to make an informed choice.
In Wales, the leaders of Labour, LibDems, Plaid Cymru & the Greens have all agreed they'll work together if necessary to form a government, but none of them will work with Reform. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0r2w79n9w1o
How about the swastika then? That pre-dates the Nazis by several thousand years, so is that no longer a Nazi symbol? You should maybe have a word with the German government, because they certainly seem to have some quite strong feelings on the matter. The Nazis adopted the swastika and it is now inextricably associated with them. It no longer has the same meaning it once did. Ditto with the Iron Cross. You can call it a ‘Cross Pattée’ all you want, but it’s a Nazi symbol just like the swastika is. And the English flag is used as a symbol of nationalism, xenophobia, and racism.
I think that was always on the cards, but the question probably still remains as to whether it will be a formal coalition or more of a “confidence and supply” type agreement. Polls and current political climate aside, I have no idea how this Senedd election is going to shake out. The voting system change is a much bigger change than people realise.
