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Energy prices, what's your plan?

Discussion in 'Serious' started by ElThomsono, 30 Aug 2022.

  1. Spraduke

    Spraduke Lurker

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    I don't have exact figures for efficiency. I once did a risk assessment of a proposed carbon capture unit on the back of a gas turbine. They are complicated and expensive as they use amines to capture CO2 from combustion air before boiling it back out of the amine and purifying it, pressurising it and then finding a suitable store for it (normally old gas wells subsea).

    I would guess that the energy required for CCS is substantial so probably emissions associated with that. Also if the system malfunctions it will just vent to atmosphere. It's not perfect but better than doing nothing like we do now.

    My only objection to electrolysis is that you already have the electricity so use that directly rather than generating hydrogen to just burn it. I get that it's meant to be a way of storing excess green energy but the losses are vast. Just pump some water uphill or charge a massive battery, hell even sand batteries are more viable IMHO.
     
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  2. theshadow2001

    theshadow2001 [DELETE] means [DELETE]

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    I heard the hydrogen is small and leaky compared to natural gas and that it itself is also greenhouse gas similar to methane. Given such problems I'm not sure how viable it would be.
     
  3. adidan

    adidan Guesswork is still work

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    Still hoping this subsidy of the fossil fuel industry is because they know fusion reactors will be online soon.

    Fusion reactors run by unicorns on the back of the Loch Ness monster.
     
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  4. Spraduke

    Spraduke Lurker

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    Yes, keeping H2 inside pipes and equipment is more difficult than natural gas due to the size of molecule being smaller. However its generally not too bad as long as the system was gas tight before (not always a guarantee!).

    Hydrogen does has a Greenhouse warming potential (GWP) of 30ish over 20 years versus 80ish for methane (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming_potential).

    Either way we don't want to be leaking this stuff as its too bloody useful to do that. In the UK standards are generally high and I would say leaks are a rarity and typically short lived, some venting to atmosphere (without combustion) occurs but it tends to be small quantities and is regulated. In other parts of the world (including the US) things can be pretty diabolical with gas wells not being capped properly or venting (really bad) or large amounts of flaring (wasteful but less bad) being common place.

    Ultimately its down to governments to set the rules and enforce them. Engineers always end up forced to design to the minimum acceptable standard which, guess what, tends to be the legal minimum (though some companies apply internal standards across all operations)
     
  5. loftie

    loftie Multimodder

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    @Spraduke I think the video says, or another one, that the places where they've used CCS already they've not generally been effective at capturing carbon. Why that is they don't say/know.

    I think the best idea of hydrogen (as I understand it but I am not a scientist/engineer) is to use it as a power back up in gas power stations. But I don't know how it compares with say heat batteries or actual batteries in terms of energy usage/leakage over time or volume. This would help balance the grid between slow reacting nuclear and the variable nature of renewables. Again though, no idea how it compares to alternatives for speed at reacting. (side note - there was somewhere trialing heat batteries built in coal power plants because a lot of the infrastructure is there. I thought that was kinda cool (hot?)).

    I didn't really see the point of using hydrogen in homes, the main arguement always seemed to be that the infrastructure is there. But if the infrastructure needs to be upgraded because hydrogen is more prone to leaks and it embrittles metal, the infrastructure isn't there. And at least WRT heat pumps, if you can lower the amount of energy put into heating then we need less generation. Also, cooling :p:

    I suppose though, that doesn't help the people who are pushing for blue hydrogen. Nor the people who receive a bribe donation from them.
     
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  6. Midlight

    Midlight Minimodder

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    I did see an interesting thing the other day about using an aluminium and gallium (I think) catalyst to split the hydrogen from water and how there had just been some lab breakthrough. It was more aimed at the issue of hydrogen storage, hell of a lot easier to store water, and releasing it at point of use. Downsides were the very high price of the gallium, catalyst would need refreshing periodically and currently only lab scale but, interesting none the less.
     
  7. mrlongbeard

    mrlongbeard Multimodder

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    My new slippers are lovely, don't know why I was so against them for so long, thank you energy crisis
     
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  8. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Lover of bit-tech Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    Added a couple of other things to the plan: a heated blanket to sit under while in the living room, so we don't have to heat the room as much; and reflective sheets to go behind the radiators, so they'll work (a bit) more efficiently (maybe).
     
  9. adidan

    adidan Guesswork is still work

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    Do those radiator reflectors work? I guess they'd be best on outside walls?

    So happy now we've had the chimney cleaned. Takes the edge off.

    We do have a 1200W oil filled heater which will be cheap to run if we just need to heat one room up I guess (the OH uses the dining room when WFH which turns out to be the coldest room when other parts of the house can be toasty if there's sun - no need for the boiler just for that.)
     
  10. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Lover of bit-tech Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    Yes, after a fashion: they take heat that would have been absorbed by the wall and bounce it back to the radiator. In theory, this either makes the room side of the radiator hotter or makes the water returning to the boiler hotter, which means it has to work less hard to heat it back up again for the next cycle.

    However, there are caveats. For starters, the wall absorbing heat ain't necessarily a bad thing - because when the radiator's off, the wall will remain warm and put that heat back into the room again. The people flogging the things will tell you that the heat in the wall goes outside, but... c'mon, unless your walls are made of uninsulated cardboard it'd take a lot of heat on the inside to make the outside rise by a single degree. Imagine someone sat in your living room w' a blow torch against the wall, and how long it'd take for you to feel it outside.

    Then there's the... well, either outright lies or complete stupidity. Have a look:

    [​IMG]

    Look! It insulates the radiator by nearly 50°C delta-T! AMAZING!

    ...no, the two materials are just different thermal emissivity. The radiator's a painted white surface; the "Warmroom® Magnetic Radiator Heat Saver" is reflective silver foil. That ε symbol? That's the emissivity the thermal camera's set to: 0.85. A white plastic coating'll be somewhere around 0.84, close enough; polished aluminium is 0.05.

    What happens if you take a picture of a low-emissivity material with your camera set to high emissivity? It gives you a false reading massively below the actual temperature if hot, or reflects nearby heat if cold. Like this:

    [​IMG]

    Shiny thing reads cold; dark electrical tape attached to shiny thing reads hot. If you poked the "Warmroom® Magnetic Radiator Heat Saver" with your finger... it'd feel the same temperature as the radiator. Because it is. The thing's literally touching the radiator, how could it not be the same temperature?

    That picture for the radiator reflector is absolute nonsense. At best, the company doesn't know how to use a thermal camera; at worst, it does but decided lying to people was better.

    Okay, rant over. Except to say that I did not buy Warmroom®-brand radiator reflectors...
     
  11. Anfield

    Anfield Multimodder

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    I'll just leave this here:

    (desired temperature change) x (cubic feet of space) x .133 = BTUs needed per hour.
     
  12. MLyons

    MLyons 70% Dev, 30% Doge. DevDoge. Software Dev @ Corsair Lover of bit-tech Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    Hang on don't you have a fancy flir camera yourself. We need a "gareth does energy crisis flir shots" thread.
     
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  13. adidan

    adidan Guesswork is still work

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    Firstly, thanks for the infodump :thumb:

    I did wonder about some of the claims and images in the marketing, As @MLyons says, we need a Halfacree Heat Hotspot Hmap.

    Not sure the benefit in my house, most of our radiators are on internal 100+year old walls so, as you say, they lap up most of the heat.

    I think if anything maybe shelves above the radiators would work better, push the heat into the room rather than up to the high ceilings.

    Or radiator covers maybe.
     
  14. mrlongbeard

    mrlongbeard Multimodder

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  15. adidan

    adidan Guesswork is still work

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  16. wyx087

    wyx087 Multimodder

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    I have a few of those radiator reflector thingy from when they were giving samples out. Totally useless IMHO, doesn't make any difference to normal rooms with it installed. Well, maybe except in the converted garage, the radiator is where the garage door used to be, this new wall looks very thin and not well insulated.

    For saving money, I've now got 2 electric oil radiators, my emergency heater and my parents' 2nd emergency heater. With some smart plug programming, I'll be using those to heat bedrooms between midnight and 4:30am. On Octopus Go EV tariff, electricity heating will be 100% efficient at 7.5p/kWh during that period, whereas gas will be 90% efficient at 10p/kWh from October. Tiny savings because not much heating is needed during those time anyway but I've not spent extra to buy anything, just re-using what we have.
     
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  17. adidan

    adidan Guesswork is still work

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    Fracking given the go ahead, Truss wants gas in 6 months.

    The founder of Cuadrilla says they're just soundbites and it won't happen because our geology isn't suitable enough for the investment needed.

    Nothing new there.
     
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  18. Spraduke

    Spraduke Lurker

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    A fracking site would very likely fall under the Control of Major Accident Hazard (COMAH) regulations. The minimum time to approve a new site is 6 months if everything is working as planned. Shocking news, the HSE and Environment Agency are underfunded and understaffed so 6 months is not going to happen. Oh and just the small detail of surveys and planning permissions on top of that.

    Gas in 6 months would just about be possible if you ignored all existing laws and regulations - gives you an insight into the dream land that many politicians live in!

    We could however have brand new solar and wind farms in 6 months (assuming government helped fast track applications through planning rules).

    Political grand standing by people ignorant of the realities of working in industry at its finest. If only they would take 30mins to consult with people who knew first who could put them straight very quickly.
     
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  19. Midlight

    Midlight Minimodder

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    What would it be like for existing sites that got closed due to the ban? Would they be quicker to bring back into service or would it take just as long? I only ask because there is one about 12-15 miles from me that I would prefer stays inactive.
     
  20. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Lover of bit-tech Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    I do! Going to give it a shot at the new house once there's enough of a difference betwix indoor and outdoor temperatures to show anything useful.
    The entire living-kitchen open-plan downstairs of the new place is, in just one of a number of bouts of abject stupidity, heated by a single small radiator... at the bottom of the stairs. In a possibly futile effort to improve matters, I picked up this:

    [​IMG]

    It's like the thing you found, but cheaper (ish - still bloody expensive for what it is) and sits on the top instead of underneath. There are three small fans and a thermostat: when the radiator heats up, the fans spin and push the air through the plastic funnel thing so it goes horizontally instead of upwards; when the radiator cools down, the fans switch off.

    I mean... unless the fans are Delta screamers I can't imagine the hot air stays horizontal for long... but I'm hoping it'll at least stop some of the heat from just disappearing up to the landing. That's the radiator I bought the reflective stuff for, too.
     
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