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News EU hands another fine to Microsoft

Discussion in 'Article Discussion' started by WilHarris, 12 Jul 2006.

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  1. glnsize

    glnsize What's a Dremel?

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    Hears the deal... If the EU was demanding 2000/XP/Vista maybe, but SERVER, no. There is competition to M$ in the server market. Novell is still in this fight. Solaris will never let go of its market share, and Mac servers are really making head way! The reason the corporate world runs windows. Is due to Active Directory and the windows domain. Now more then ever Corporations are more security conscious. Don't like it build up Linux. Build an equivalent to the GPO, SMS, MOM, IIS (WAY BETTER THEN APACHE) to name a few. Until then sit down and STFU. But the truth is they've tried, and no one has been able to come up with a better product. I work with several company who still use Solaris and Linux but there whole thing is once M$ supports more ram there switching over two. Due to the administrative advantages that M$ offers. Not to mention the Security!!! Congrats some “hacker” ie script kiddie, finds a security flaw in flash where by you could change someones favorites by blah blah blah. Honestly thats only a problem for joe user! A corporation with an adequate network and competent AV has nothing to worry about. But the big advantage from a corporate point of view is the control that windows provide over its employees. Afraid your employees are slacking off on bit-tech, lock down IE. Read a rumor about your Company new video card on the Internet check you exchange logs find the snitch. The list goes on and on...

    The reason M$ doesn't drop out or the EU entirely is not due to sales. It's because your Corporations could not run anything else, and if M$ pulled out the EU would just start running Pirated copies. Now there still running the software, but there is not QC. Can't use the profit argument because apparently if a US product gets big in EU they get sued to get all that money back. F*** P******!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Your argument is broken so that leave three choices.
    1.) The EU hate USA so therefore want to run EU software.
    2.) The EU blew there budget and saw this an easy way out.
    3.) THERE REALY THAT DAMN STUPID!

    -but then again what do i know...
     
  2. Glider

    Glider /dev/null

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    MS Did initially release parts of the source code... But that didn't seem sufficient... If you don't get enough info from the source codes, then I ask, where do you get it from?
    What? The right to chose your own partners? That is a freedom... Like you have the freedom to chose your own girlfriend... Partnership is 25% economical and 75% trust and service...
    NTFS is intelectual property of Microsoft... I don't like it, but I respect it... And there are (better) alternatives to NTFS...
    There are database implementations in Linux... A normal buisness could switch over to a linux based environment without much hassle, except for the PC illiterate employees that search for the "Any Key". They are the ones that stop companies from switching...

    And Colonel Sanders, you look at it purely from a windows user stance... If your company (on linux) has to work together with a company on windows, the data exchange fails because of incompabilities... True, but why blame the Linux side, when the windows side is equally incompatible? Just because other companies use Windows?
    LDAP...
    The underlined parts: You must be kidding, right? Apache is old, Apache2 beats IIS... Administrative advantages... More secure? Come on, get real... If you say Linux, you say security... Of course, if it is well implemented... You can build a vault and leave the door open...
    You are mixing the logging from a Linux environment with the try-logging of Windows... Run a decent logging daemon and you can allmost register how much an employee farts...
     
  3. yahooadam

    yahooadam <span style="color:#f00;font-weight:bold">Ultra cs

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    yes this is true, and the EU came back to them very rapidly saying that without documentation, code is practically useless, it would take a very long time to work out what all that code does

    Yep group policies and such are very good for "security for dummies" group policy is a good way to restrict what users do

    but even then, at my college we have to run like 5 other apps to actually lock down the network, even with enough rights to do things like programming, clearly even group policy and such isn't all that great yet

    OMG are you joking, IIS is about the worst web server software ever
    I believe there was an article on the net of how you could hack into a IIS server just by adding a string to a URL, and bam you have access

    Also, IIS is flawed in that its practically built into the OS, if IIS is compromised, your entire server, and probably network are also compromised
    Companies have to run servers in DMZ's so that the network is separated, although i don't think that's specific to IIS servers
    Apache 1 probably isn't very secure, just because its now becoming very out of date, but Apache 2 is miles ahead of IIS

    Not forgetting Apache isn't built into the OS, if Apache is compromised, the computer is not in as much trouble

    Thats true, every security system will be as weak as its weakest link, however, thats why we employ admins to keep servers secure, and networks safe
     
  4. [Jonny]

    [Jonny] What's a Dremel?

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    or the documentation?
     
  5. Glider

    Glider /dev/null

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    One can write that, then surely an other can read that...
     
  6. [Jonny]

    [Jonny] What's a Dremel?

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    You could also try reverse engineering it too, (Windows Server) but that's not the point is it?
     
  7. Glider

    Glider /dev/null

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    Ok... that was a usefull post... :s
     
  8. yahooadam

    yahooadam <span style="color:#f00;font-weight:bold">Ultra cs

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    not really

    consider the above (although i'm not sure if that's actual code from windows)

    Do you know what that does, i sure as hell do, hundreds of lines of uncommented code is about as useful as a wet fart in a whiskey bottle
     
  9. Da Dego

    Da Dego Brett Thomas

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    What was?
     
  10. Spaceraver

    Spaceraver Ultralurker

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    We need more interoperability.. That much is true, but the way it is forced down Microsofts throat is wrong... I hate Windows for being a bloaty piece of OS software, but that can be changed with a little help from N-lite and other stuff.. It's like buying a new car and finding a flaw in the way the rear view mirror is bolted to the rest of the car, you dont buy a new car just because of that, you buy a new mirror right... I use Windows anyways, i have enough original keys for my machines at the moment, but that does not mean that open source isn't a viable option.. My router and older laptop runs linux, because I want it that way, and there a distro available for it..That just relates to changing another bit of the same car..

    Point is.. If you don't like it, use something else and stop mucking about the car running wierdly.. :wallbash:
     
  11. draxar

    draxar What's a Dremel?

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    Coming at this from mostly an Economics point of view (hey, I've got a degree in it), here's my thoughts...

    Unless it is actually a proper Natural Monopoly, monopolies are always bad for the consumer - they supply less and charge more than competitive markets. A natural monopoly only arises when there are great economies of scale and big capital costs to start in the industry.

    I think Microsoft probably used to be at least something of a natural monopoly, what with the capital costs of developing operating systems and suchlike, and the difficulty in making different operating systems interact.

    Nowadays I'd say that both of those is reduced, but Microsoft has been left in a dominant position, and it's using that position to make it harder for other companies to compete (tying its programs like media player into windows, not giving people access to the code they need to be able to make their programs interact with windows).

    And thus it has become an at least somewhat guilty of abusing it's monopoly power.
     
  12. Glider

    Glider /dev/null

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    I refuse to believe that MS wrote Media Player and IE in just to oppose competition... I think they did that for ease of use, to "serve" the PC illiterates, because Windows is written for them. People who can't (or can't be bothered) to install Winamp or the likes, or Firefox... They just want something that works out of the box. MS realised that and they coded Media Player, IE,... and inegrated that as a service, not as a means of unfair competition...
     
  13. eddtox

    eddtox Homo Interneticus

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    Come off it, Glider. Have you ever tried to remove WMP or IE? Feature is one thing, ramming it down our throats is totally different. Sure, I can install WinAMP, Opera/Firefox etc., however I'll still have WMP and IE sitting on my machine with no use whatsoever and therefore wasting my resources.

    -ed out
     
  14. Glider

    Glider /dev/null

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    If you dont want it, then don't use it... They aren't forcing you... If they were they'd make winamp incompatible with the standard windows soundmixer, that would be forcing you, because winamp would just not produce any sound. Last time I checked you just need to run a simple installer and winamp is ready to go. Hardly a complex "hack" of you windows, is it?
    And wasting your resources? Clearing your firefox's cache will probably free up more "resources" that IE and WMP combined take up... Don't spill out bullsh*t will you...

    Look, if you have such a problem with all the things in Windows (which you clearly have because you whine about a few MB of [dirt cheap] storage space), do what I did, go Linux. My Gentoo installation takes up 3.92GB of System space (all applications and stuff included). And it exactly does what I want, the way I want it. No unneeded services running, no bloated user interface,...

    Microsoft is a company that wants to give the best support to the majority of their users, and like it or not, most people don't give a sh*t if they use winamp, WMP, or some other exotic piece of software. They want minimal fuss, 1 click action. And including packages like IE and WMP does that for Microsoft's clients. And can you blame MS for offering best possible support to the majority of their clients? Last time I checked that was the basis of a healthy company...

    EDIT: I booted to XP specially for you, WMP 11 beta (or was it 10?) and IE 6 combined take up a little less than 6MB, let's take worst case, very integrated that this is 20% of the total size, that would make 30MB... I have documents larger than that...
     
  15. yahooadam

    yahooadam <span style="color:#f00;font-weight:bold">Ultra cs

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    i do have to ask - what resources ?

    if your not running the app, its not going to be using RAM or processor cycles, so all its taking up is some HDD space, and lets face it, what is it maybe 50MB - as if most peoples HDD's cannot handle that
     
  16. eddtox

    eddtox Homo Interneticus

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    It's just a matter of principle. I like to keep my windows/hd as clean as possible and it bugs me that I have stuff on there which I can't stand and I would never touch with someone else's barge pole. I'm fine with them offering the option, I'm NOT fine with them forcing us to use/have it. Why is it that if I want to move from winamp to WMP, I can uninstall winamp, but if I want to go from WMP to winamp I can't uninstall WMP so I'm forced to have it on my system whether I use it or not. I can see no valid reason why I shouldn't be able to have ONLY what I want/need on my PC. If any other company didn't allow you to uninstall their software you would not be very happy, so why is it that you're OK with MS doing it? As for your age-old "use another OS" rhetoric, get real. If someone spends a lot of money on a top-of-the-range PC, chances are they will use it for games, in which case they have no choice but to use windows. If MS is so good, then why are they afraid? Release the source/documentation for DirectX7 or 8, and allow the open source community to work from there.

    -ed out
     
  17. Glider

    Glider /dev/null

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    I don't mind 50MB taken on my hd for stuff I don't use... Hell, there's even more taken, who cares? You're just being paranoid... You buy XP as a package, that is included... wtf? If you get some gadget for free with a product you buy you won't decline it, but if MS does it, you have to remove it because you don't want it. There are loads of "system critical" DLL's and stuff on a system, which I happen not to use; because I don't use the services (like IIS), but when I throw them out blindly they will infect my entire system (because, a complex piece of software isn't just 1 package 1 use type of thing) So you want MS to rebuild the very core structure of their OS, just because you are whining about a 50MB in a 2GB installation? Get real... Grow up...
    Because that isn't the way MS works, it isn't an OPEN source company, it is a CLOSED source company. You get binary files, not source code, is that so hard to understand? Direct X is intelectual property of MS, and MS has the right to protect it.

    And maybe you find it an age-old "use another OS" rhetoric, but it is the truth, and something you might not like, but can't ignore. Your hypocitic behaviour doesn't give you the right to violate the EULA, because you don't like what you bought... Well, maybe I sound harsh when I say it, but you allways **** on MS, yet you still run to it's OS, that is hypocitical behavour... If you find all the MS stuff such a problem, STFU and don't use it, and live with the consequences. If you feel you are being forced to XP, then talk to the developers of the games, tell them your story, they are the ones to blame, not MS. But I don't think they will invest more money (because, they are like 99% of the people lazy) to get your game to run on Linux, just because you have a problem with MS... Most gamers live with the consequences of practising their hobby, if you can't you should consider another... Eg, I like car racing, but when I race I need a set of tyres, fuel, ... But I don't want that, I just want to race... See how that fits you?
     
  18. eddtox

    eddtox Homo Interneticus

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    Glider, with all due respect, youre just being a little pr*** now. How many times do I have to tell you - I don't care what size they take up - I don't want them! I'm fed up with MS jamming their sh*t down my throat and people like you condoning that sort of behaviour. MS isn't an open source company, but they still have to adhere to the laws which are in effect where their software is sold. They ARE NOT ABOVE THE LAW. Anti-monopoly laws are put in place specifically to prevent this sort of behaviour and to ensure that there is competition in the marketplace. Otherwise you would have a scenario where companies can do whatever they want and say "If you don't like it, don't use it". This effectively means that they are not only monopolizing the OS market, but the whole industry, and unfortunately we are moving towards that. Vista will be incompatible with hardware without WHQL drivers (which puts money back into MS's pockets). Hardware manufacturers are FORCED to pay up because windows has market dominance and they have no chance of launching a succesfull product without MS. All companies have the right to protect their investment and to try to achieve market dominance. However, laws have been put in place to prevent that dominance from turning into a monopoly. Look at intel - if it wasn't for AMD lighting a fire under their a$$ they probably wouldn't have put so much effort into their conroe architechture as there would be no competition and therefore no reason to bother. The truth of the matter is that evolution will not occur unless a need for it arises.

    -ed out
     
  19. hitman012

    hitman012 Minimodder

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    Please, keep the insults out of this. I understand that a debate can become heated, but this is no excuse for outright insulting another member and half-subverting the swear filter.

    Just keep it in line :)
     
  20. modster

    modster What's a Dremel?

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    umm.. i guess it's really like buying a car. if there is a feature that you cant stand. you can either a) remove it (if i remember correctly, removing IE isnt that hard) b) choose another car! (linux?) there are choices out there. hack, go get a mac or something. i agree that monopoly is bad for the consumers, but for this particular event, were they being fair? NO! why cant you look at this from MS's point of view.

    anyways, if i were MS, i would pay the fine and then show them what a monopoly can do. keep the price high (in europe) until they make enough profit to make up the fine.
     
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