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Experts?

Discussion in 'Serious' started by Risky, 8 Dec 2017.

  1. Nexxo

    Nexxo Bargaining chip

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    Being in denial and projecting your human flaws on an imagined external evil doesn't actually change anything. The problem with saying that all the world's evil is caused by the Devil is that you are disavowing all personal responsibility and agency in doing something about that evil, and nothing changes. The Devil sure isn't going to.

    Moreover by refusing to accept your flaws, you refuse to accept those in others. You become judgmental rather than compassionate, rejecting rather than caring.

    So you end up mired in powerless rage and misanthropy, banging your head against the walls of your tiny universe. Now that's depressing.

    By accepting that they are flawed, people can strive to overcome those flaws and become better people. And they can accept those flaws in others as they do in themselves, which is the first step towards mutual compassion and cooperation.

    Basically acceptance of human flaws is the first step to enlightenment as a species.
     
    Last edited: 12 Dec 2017
  2. Nexxo

    Nexxo Bargaining chip

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    Well, right here:

    The thing is:
    1. Your system is flawed, and
    2: It's not up to you anyway. Any political change has to come from the electorate. That's what taking responsibility means.

    And they did, in the current political system.

    Then move to Syria. It's direct democracy in action, there.

    Have you ever considered that the political system we have here exists because it's the one that people decided to have? You may not agree with it; you may think that people are stupid sheep, but they are making their own decision to stick with the current system and accepting the consequences. As you yourself acknowledged: change has to come from the electorate. If it doesn't change the status quo, it is because it is happy enough with things as they are.

    Your desire to overthrow all that, and risk chaos and suffering for a significant number of people who just want to get on with their lives because you think you have a better system seems frankly a bit patronising and elitist.
     
    Last edited: 12 Dec 2017
  3. Byron C

    Byron C *psst!* This guy is a loser!

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    It's not you that is being criticised it's your argument. There's a fundamental difference.
     
  4. Corky42

    Corky42 What did walle eat for breakfast?

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    That's pretty much been the thread running through most of what you've said, you even ended your post by implying that certain people are without flaws when you said the following...

    By saying you don't want the "elites" (whoever they are) dictating everything the implication is that the "elites" are flawed and by extension we're not so we should take back control.

    What I, and it would seem others, are saying is that it's not a matter of the "elites" being flawed and ourselves perfect, it's that by our very nature humans are flawed and imperfect beings so any system involving humans needs to be designed in such a way as to either prevent or mitigate the bad aspects of the human psyche while still allowing the good aspects to flourish.

    Replacing the system wouldn't solve anything not because one system works and the other doesn't, it would fail because both systems fail to take account of the human factor.
     
    Last edited: 13 Dec 2017
  5. Nexxo

    Nexxo Bargaining chip

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    It is not possible to read without interpretation. If you want to be interpreted correctly, you'll have to express yourself clearer.

    So far you've diagnosed the illness, but not the underlying cause, nor the cure.

    That's nice. See above.

    Again, you're not the first one to have identified these problems and seek a solution to them. You're not the first to care about the downtrodden. But shouting "We must do something!" and then arguing: "This is something, therefore we must do it!" is not an effective problem solving strategy.
     
  6. Corky42

    Corky42 What did walle eat for breakfast?

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    There is no interpretation, it's called logic.

    In essence you're saying that the current system is flawed because it concentrates to much power into the hands of a few "elites" and your solution to that is not divest those powers but to make many more "elites" with their own personal fiefdoms.
     
  7. Nexxo

    Nexxo Bargaining chip

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    Doing something is not the same as solving the problem.
     
  8. Corky42

    Corky42 What did walle eat for breakfast?

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    At this stage I'm not sure you even understand what "the system" is as it seems you believe a group of people with the authority to govern is "the system" but at the same time you seem to be ignoring the "group of people" part and believe if you make the group of people smaller that it's going to magically fix things.

    You can slice and dice "the system" that's used to organise a group of people however you like but it's not going to "fix" anything as all you're doing is changing how big or small the group with the authority to govern is.
     
  9. Nexxo

    Nexxo Bargaining chip

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    In the context within which you use the word, "system" is ALL the people and the network of ALL the relationships between them. The electorate is part of the system, and hence part of the problem.

    You are basically attributing an abusive relationship between adults to just one partner. It doesn't work like that.

    As you yourself admitted: change must come from the electorate. If the abuser doesn't want to change, then it is up to the abused to do something about it. You can't rescue people and change their partner for them, to someone who you think will be better for them. They have to be motivated to change the relationship themselves, and choose their own partner.
     
    Last edited: 13 Dec 2017
  10. Corky42

    Corky42 What did walle eat for breakfast?

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    So who is it that writes these rules and laws on how things are done?
     
  11. Corky42

    Corky42 What did walle eat for breakfast?

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    So these elites you speak of are not people, are not part of the public?

    What utter tosh, you've heard of elections i presume?
     
  12. Nexxo

    Nexxo Bargaining chip

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    Remove all people from a system, and what do you have left?

    Rules and laws are concepts created by, and existing only in the minds of people. As you say: they concern how things are done. Without people to do them, they don't exist.

    So the only way for the system to change is for people to change it, because a system IS a construct of, and by people. And as you already said yourself: it will have to be the electorate to change it.

    So what you or I think is irrelevant. It's up to the electorate, and right now, it is choosing the status quo.
     
  13. Nexxo

    Nexxo Bargaining chip

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    ^^^ Tribal group-think, right there. Them bad, us good (let's make war). Didn't work a million years ago, doesn't work now.
     
  14. Corky42

    Corky42 What did walle eat for breakfast?

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    OK now you're starting to sound a tad conspiratorial, you do understand who makes rules and laws right?

    Lets see if we can at least establish who makes the rules and laws on how things are done, see if you can answer that simple question without referring to some imaginary undefined group.

    And when you do rewrite these rules you become the very same privileged elite you so despise, no?
     
  15. Corky42

    Corky42 What did walle eat for breakfast?

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    No you conjured up an imaginary undefined group of people who it just so happens doesn't include you or "normal" people.
     
  16. Nexxo

    Nexxo Bargaining chip

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    Class-ism is a form of tribalism: All those 'elite' looking out for themselves? Tribalism. If you're OK with the latter as something natural, then you should be OK with the former.

    Actually we'd end up with exactly with a system that allows for inequality, because people are tribal, remember? It's in their nature and nothing wrong with that, remember?

    Anyway, let me know when the common people decide to rewrite the rules.
     
    Last edited: 13 Dec 2017
  17. Nexxo

    Nexxo Bargaining chip

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    Tribalism is not about equal opportunities; it is about competition for resources.
     
  18. Corky42

    Corky42 What did walle eat for breakfast?

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    Yea but it's competition jrs77 isn't allowed to take part in apparently, i think it's something to do with a cabal of elitist overlords, despite the fact that getting a job as a person who decides on what rules and laws are enacted being perhaps the easiest job application in history.
     
  19. Corky42

    Corky42 What did walle eat for breakfast?

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    Have you been paying attention to politics lately, are you even aware of the caliber of some of our MPs?

    I mean if you seriously think not all people have the opportunity to become an MP then that must be a very low bar your setting.
     
  20. Nexxo

    Nexxo Bargaining chip

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    What I interpret is that you have no understanding of what tribalism is, why it exists or how it works. And therefore you have no understanding that if you get any people to rewrite the system of law and government, you will end up with the same tribal competition, which gives rise to the same inequalities. Someone has to be at the top of the food chain: natural selection, yo.

    So tribalism is anathema to what you are trying to achieve. If you approach the problem from that perspective, you will fail. Yet you indulge in it: your entire thinking is shaped by it. You are trying to fight fire with fire and wondering why things keep burning.
     

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