1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Gaming Fat, Ugly or Slutty?

Discussion in 'Article Discussion' started by arcticstoat, 20 Jun 2011.

  1. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

    Joined:
    23 Oct 2001
    Posts:
    34,106
    Likes Received:
    1,610
    And as the relationship becomes more intimate, the real you is exposed more and more.

    That's just another way of saying that I'm an old fogy who just doesn't get it (man!), and not an argument as such. And I'm a psychologist, remember? Perhaps it is possible that I have a different, but equally valid and informed perspective on it.

    The reason that gamers are rattled by verbal abuse of other gamers is because it is perceived as breaking the social rules of that interactional context. Fragging each other is fine, but name calling and insults are personal. Regardless, whether consciously or preconsciously, it is a matter of choosing what significance you give those interactions and relationships.

    You already have a relationship with those people based in real life. But I'm not saying that it is not possible to build an emotionally significant relationship on-line. I'm saying that it is a matter of choice how far you engage in it. It is unlikely that you built any form of significant emotional relationship with the anonymous misogynist ranter who you just played a few games with, so if you feel hurt it is possibly because you started to imbue the group activity and context with a special significance that was not warranted. One needs to be careful of that. A game played with strangers is still dealing with strangers.

    boiled_elephant makes some very good points about how ordinary people construe social experiences online and can get burned by that. I would in fact argue that they (and leslie) may not be 'getting' on-line relationships. They think that the Internet is one big happy family. It is not. It is a bunch of random strangers; random anonymous strangers at that. Like people coming out to the city centre on a Friday night to go to night clubs, dance, drink and socialise, some will play nice with each other, some will keep to themselves, some will get into drunken fights with anyone who as much as looks in their direction, while some will make out with each other in an alley or toilet cubicle. For some, their first chance encounter grows over time into friendship, perhaps even love. Others fall victim to opportunist muggings or even rape. Friday nights on Broad Street: you can have fun, but you can also get hurt. Watch your drink at all times. Don't go with strangers. Avoid the argumentative drunks. Avoid dark alleys. Keep your wallet safe. Practice safe sex. Stick with your friends and don't get caught in a strange place on your own. Don't just give out your phone number or address to anyone. Don't we all tell our friends that? Don't all parents nervously tell their teenage kids before they out? Isn't this the reason why we would never, ever let an underage child loose on Friday night without adult supervision?

    The Web is exactly like that. It is not a friendly global village; it hasn't been since 1995. There are some walled cities, tightly guarded by moderators, like Active World, like forums such as this, like child-friendly social networking sites. But outside of these it is like Friday nights on Broad Street: adults only. leslie and others argue that on-line relationships are the same as real life relationships. If they are, then the same real-life caveats apply.

    "Be careful. Be very, very careful..." --the Game Cat, in 'Vurt' by Jeff Noon
     
    Last edited: 27 Jun 2011
  2. Bauul

    Bauul Sir Bongaminge

    Joined:
    7 Apr 2007
    Posts:
    2,173
    Likes Received:
    38
    Yes Nexxo, we understand the Internet isn't a safe place, but you seem to be arguing that because it isn't safe, we therefore shouldn't do anything about it.

    Using your example, if you get mugged in an inner-city on a Friday night, there's no point telling anyone about it or even complaining, because it's your fault for going there in the first place. What's more, if someone you know has that happen to them, there's no point giving them any sympathy.

    You know, just because something is likely doesn't therefore mean it's right, and no-one has the right to take issue with it.

    You're starting to sound like the people who say if a girl wears a short skirt and gets raped as a result, it's her fault, and she shouldn't complain.
     
  3. jhng

    jhng New Member

    Joined:
    15 Nov 2010
    Posts:
    102
    Likes Received:
    2
    I like the 'Friday Night on Broad St' analogy -- of course, that does also suggest that online interactions are just as real as those of Friday Night on Broad St...

    I would say that for exactly this reason, real world standards of behaviour should apply -- at least as an ideal rule. Even if it is not universal and there are some obnoxious t**ts half-cut and shouting abuse at the bus stop, hopefully they are a relatively rare event rather than an ongoing feature of every night out.

    But I agree that treating the internet as 'one big happy family' is naive, although I think you (Nexxo) are perhaps not giving Leslie her(?) due by assuming that she has taken this view -- as I read it, her posts were simply that she would like to receive the same level of civility online as she would expect from the majority of people when out and about IRL.

    Incidentally, as a psychologist surely you are aware that 'big happy family' is an oxymoron? ;-)
     
  4. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

    Joined:
    23 Oct 2001
    Posts:
    34,106
    Likes Received:
    1,610
    I think I've said in a number of previous posts that inappropriate behaviour should be challenged (and the more consistent and widespread that challenge is, the more effective it is). But that does not mean that we shouldn't do anything to keep ourselves safe from such behaviour. Boundaries, no? You avoid the company of drunks looking for a fight, don't you? You avoid the company of immature teens who shout and swear at people.

    And, to put it in the cliche girl-in-a-short-skirt terms: would you let your 14-year old go out on Broad Street in a short skirt? I wouldn't. Why? Because at all of age 14 she is not old, wise and mature enough to be aware of, and manage the attentions that such dress would provoke. When would I let my daughter go out in a short skirt? When she is old, wise and mature enough to be aware of, and manage the attention such dress can provoke.

    That does not mean it is not pertinently wrong that a 14-year old in a short skirt should become the subject of sexual attentions. That does not mean that rape isn't wrong and shouldn't be challenged. But the world is what it is: not a perfect place. You challenge burglary, but you lock your doors. You challenge rape, but you also try and do what you reasonably can to keep yourself safe from it. That doesn't mean having to wear a hijab; it can be as simple as just being aware of the dangers of certain company and situations, and avoiding them if you feel out of your depth.

    You want the internet to be a less misogynist place? Let's, as Ghandi said, be the change we want to see in the world. Let's trash the Bit-Tech Babe thread now. Just give me the word, and I'll do it.

    They are as real as you choose them to be. Some people are out to find love, some people are out for anonymous sex in a toilet cubicle. Some people are out to meet friends and have a good time, some people are out for a fight.

    You really need to go out more often. Well, in Birmingham at least. :p

    That's exactly the problem: how much civility does she expect from horny, drunken, argumentative revellers on Broad Street on a Friday Night? I bet she'd steer clear, keep her BS Detector switched on and have fun with her friends. She needs to do the same on the internet.

    I guess what I'm saying is: you choose how real your on-line relationships are to you. The more like real-life relationships you treat them, the more real-life social caveats apply.

    Touche. :p
     
    Last edited: 27 Jun 2011
  5. leslie

    leslie Just me!

    Joined:
    19 May 2009
    Posts:
    412
    Likes Received:
    11
    Actually, I would settle for being treated like the rest of you are in games.

    This is what many here don't get.
    I get it that people talk smack and are generally rude on the internet (anonymous people being rude, what a concept!).


    What we want is to be treated as an equal and allowed to have a decent game, not as some sex object, slave, goddess, freak or delicate flower.

    But apparently some here think that should only be allowed to happen if we hide the fact that we are women and just let all of it slide. Which is exactly why so many think all we do is play Farmville or Wii Sports. There are a ton of women playing with you guys, but they won't show themselves because we get treated like absolute cr@p far too often just for being a girl.
     
  6. dancingbear84

    dancingbear84 error 404

    Joined:
    16 Oct 2010
    Posts:
    2,192
    Likes Received:
    73
    I think it is wrong, but the only way it will change is if there is a catalyst for change. The anonymity can only account for so much, whenever I play online I am in general anyway, the same as I am in real life, generally pleasant but prone to errupt when provoked. Regardless of how much I'm provoked I wouldn't start a personal attack on anyone based on sex or race. Age on the other hand, Perhaps. Depends on the situation but never personal about an individual. IMO it's just rude, but unfortunately people don't care about that any more.

    Girls need to be "out and proud" so to speak. People will always be afraid of things that are new or they don't understand. With the bulk of games targeted at males under 30 or kids it is hard especially if you under attack when you play. But as hard as it is ignore the cretins who attack you. In the end you are doing something you enjoy for yourself. F&%k the rest of the world.

    By the way I'm a 27 year old male so it is easy for me to say
     
  7. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

    Joined:
    23 Oct 2001
    Posts:
    34,106
    Likes Received:
    1,610
    I don't think that anyone disagrees with you here. Neither do I think that anyone is saying that misogynist behaviour should not be challenged.

    But I am also suggesting that you don't take the behaviour of such 'tards too much to heart. They do not deserve to be taken seriously. Retards be retards; the world has them, unfortunately, but you don't have to let them get to you. Don't allow them to define you as a victim. Dancingbear84 is right: the only way to get equality is to come out and demand it, not by hiding away and complaining bitterly about the injustice of it all. Women's rights would never have got anywhere if suffragettes had been little wall flowers.
     
    Last edited: 27 Jun 2011
  8. leslie

    leslie Just me!

    Joined:
    19 May 2009
    Posts:
    412
    Likes Received:
    11
    I don't hide, which is why such a high percentage of my games are wrecked in one form or another.

    You still don't get it.
    If we ignore it, it doesn't stop. When we demand it, we get people like you who think all this is just an occasional sexist remark and that that all we have to do is to stand up to them. When we do stand up to them, they get angry and all hell breaks loose, often resulting in a ban of both parties.

    So your solution is leave?
    Great, I may as well just give up gaming because that is exactly what you are telling me to do. Why do you think we play as guys.


    So long as people like you blow it off and say "ignore it", you may as well be giving these people a free pass and forget about seeing women playing in mass numbers.
     
  9. 3lusive

    3lusive New Member

    Joined:
    5 Feb 2011
    Posts:
    1,100
    Likes Received:
    45
    I don't think hes saying exactly that. Hes saying more along the lines of: 'don't rise to the bait'. If you come across this type of abuse on a regular basis report it to the necessary parties (not that that will help much, I know), but more importantly don't take it as a direct personal attack when the person who's giving you the abuse could be giving it to any generic girl gamer, ie they don't know you personally and are probably doing it because they're insecure little nincompoops who probably haven't hit puberty yet. It's not a be all end all solution but by calling them back (or whatever) its only going to fuel them to be more abusive etc.
     
  10. leslie

    leslie Just me!

    Joined:
    19 May 2009
    Posts:
    412
    Likes Received:
    11
    I never said that I take it as a personal attack.

    Falling for the bait ends bad.
    Ignoring it leads to more baiting.
    Leaving, means it ends, period.
    Option 4?


    And leaving is exactly what he is saying.
     
  11. leveller

    leveller Yeti Sports 2 - 2011 Champion!

    Joined:
    1 Dec 2009
    Posts:
    1,107
    Likes Received:
    24
    Until we have a regulation in place that makes it mandatory to destroy the dickhead-gene at birth, the best way to enjoy gaming is to:

    • find properly adminned community servers.
    • join a friendly clan.
    • maintain screenshots/chat logs of abusive behaviour - F12 in Steam (PC) takes great screenshots and post them to your profile, which is great should anyone want to see evidence. It may also get more unwanted responses.
    • don't overly publicise the fact that you belong to a persecuted group (ie. GURL GAMER: Sarah).
    • recognise that idiots do hide behind their monitors at all times and will try and annoy you.
    • flirting with guys over microphones is fun, but can also lead to unwanted responses.
    • if you give banter, expect banter back.
    • treat others as you want to be treated.
    • playing action games, like FPS's increases levels of adrenaline and aggression, expect things to get heated at times.

    These should apply to all wanting great gaming, not just women.

    Can anyone think of any more?
     
  12. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

    Joined:
    23 Oct 2001
    Posts:
    34,106
    Likes Received:
    1,610
    Falling for the bait ends up with you feeling bad and the asshat reinforced in his behaviour.

    Ignoring the asshat (or, given that your verbal prowess is likely to outmatch his by a factor of 10, ridiculing him) results in extinction of his behaviour, because it stops being fun for him. I have said before that for this to happen, it is important that everyone witnessing the behaviour starts ignoring and ridiculing him, not just you. That should be easy if you're playing with friends. He then gets socially ostracised, and he will leave.

    You do not have to leave altogether. You just have to be selective about the company you play with, and where you play. If you treat it like a real-life interaction, real-life caveats apply. You don't visit places frequented by misogynist asshats, do you? I don't frequent pubs known to be places where the White Pride types hang out, or for that matter just the generic argumentative drunks, just because I feel it's my right or something. It's bound to end in tears and they're not fun places anyway.

    I can sense your frustration and sense of powerlessness radiating through your posts and you want to dismiss all these options because you want me to get a taste of that powerlessness. You want me to know what it feels like. I do: I'm mixed-race and I've been discriminated against wherever I go (especially in my own country of birth). I can empathise and agree with you until the cows come home, and although you may find that helpful, it won't actually change the situation (although I do recognise that said empathy may give you the moral fortitude to confront it). As you say: what are you supposed to do? I've learned to deal with it as a fact of life, which, as we all know, is Unfair Like That. You have to deal with misogyny; I with racism from both sides, others with other prejudices. We're no special little flowers. What other choice do we have?
     
    Last edited: 29 Jun 2011
  13. jhng

    jhng New Member

    Joined:
    15 Nov 2010
    Posts:
    102
    Likes Received:
    2
    Option 4 is a culture shift in online gaming communities.

    It has happened in real life. Notwithstanding what Nexxo says about white pride pubs, I am sure it is the case that in the great majority of pubs these days you would not get away with flagrant racism/homophobia/misogyny whereas this would have been 'normal' behaviour several decades ago.

    There is no reason why it can't happen in gaming life as well, although the challenges may be different because of the anonymity and the distributed nature of the community.

    As a starting point, I would agree with what Nexxo says about not reinforcing the behaviour by rising to it -- after all that is what helps the t**t get his/her rocks off. As any parent can confirm, the best way to get your child to misbehave more is to lose your temper when they do.

    However, I don't agree that you should ignore it. A robust, but dignified and polite, put down makes it clear that the the the t**t has not 'won' and also sets an example to everyone else on the server how to deal with these issues. Done effectively, it also ends the conversation.

    However, it does really need community wide action to get a culture shift moving. One thought I had is that it could be useful to have a 'kitemark', so to speak, for servers that adopt an agreed code of conduct promoting a modern culture and a low tolerance to discriminatory behaviour. This would make it easier to see at a glance whether a given community is, in principle, on message with these issues. It would also raise the profile of the issues and start gradually setting an example to other communities.

    In terms of the practicalities of how to get such a code of conduct going, it would make sense to try and get some of the bigger players on board at an early stage such as the official servers run by EA, Activision et cetera. Clearly they may be reluctant to interfere with the activities of their male-pubescent core market; however, it would be pretty hard for them to publicly refuse to adopt such a code of conduct. They will try to resist on the basis that it is already in their ToC's -- however, the issue could be presented as the need to get it out of the ToC's and into the public eye. If they say 'no', then are they effectively condoning racism etc?

    It would also appeal to the various certification/ratings agencies who at the moment are obliged to simply wash their hands of the online issue when rating games -- they may well like the idea of being able to say to EA: 'yes, we know you don't have control over what happens online; however, we do at least want to see your own servers promoting the such and such code of conduct'.

    The folk who have set up FUoS may be well-placed to give this some more thought.
     
  14. Blarte

    Blarte Moderate Modder

    Joined:
    15 Jul 2008
    Posts:
    1,579
    Likes Received:
    109
    I thought that was my ex's dating site entry .. dissapointed now.. she was all three but dam she was a fine woman ..
     
  15. boiled_elephant

    boiled_elephant Merom Celeron 4 lyfe

    Joined:
    14 Jul 2004
    Posts:
    6,156
    Likes Received:
    560
    I have been saying this for years.

    To your point about the nature of the internet, though: I think you describe it accurately, but I also think that, being a paid service and a retail product, Xbox Live and PSN need to be walled-in cities. Microsoft and Sony have a responsibility to make them child-friendly because they sell their products to children and a large part of their products is the network.

    I think that's my main point here: you expect this crap on the internet generally, but it absolutely should not exist or be tolerated on XBL and PSN. It's abuse in a paid-for, corporately sanctioned and governed environment, and people doing it should be permanently banned without warning. Then they can go back to 4chan where they and their behaviour belong.

    edit - I think jhng is right about it needing to be community-wide and motivated. Before any of that can happen, though, people need to be more informed. At the moment, most people are just massively ignorant of the internet and how it works; they stumble into online gaming with no education to inform their expectations. There are no TV shows about online gaming, it's not a staple in films, it's not dealt with in fiction beyond as a cheap "this is the bad guy" code.

    Think about it, why do we know that dark alleys are dangerous, that skirts make you a target for rape and that people with shaved heads are to be avoided? Because media say so. The media're oddly silent on the subject of online gaming: in popular consciousness, it doesn't exist yet. People have to be familiar with it before they'll start talking about it and establishing moral codes for it.

    This is basically a responsibility-dodge, saying that the media and wider society have to change and incorporate online gaming into their attitudes and thought - but for what it's worth, I'm doing my part by playing online games and not being a racist misogynist homophobe asshat (and by mercilessly trolling those who are).
     
    Last edited: 29 Jun 2011
  16. SexyHyde

    SexyHyde Member

    Joined:
    24 Jul 2009
    Posts:
    609
    Likes Received:
    11
    My girlfriends username makes it blatantly obvious she is a girl (girl is in her username). She games with a mic and never has had a problem, I've also played on the account without using the mic and have never had any problems. The few female clan members in my old css clan never had problems either. I have to say I can't remember ever witnessing anybody being sexist or abusive. The one thing I have witnessed is racism and I'm glad to say not a lot on pc especially the last few years. Xbox live is a totally different kettle of fish tho, everyone abuses everyone and it is constant to the point were I didn't find gaming on it enjoyable, so much so I sold the console.
     
  17. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

    Joined:
    23 Oct 2001
    Posts:
    34,106
    Likes Received:
    1,610
    I totally agree with that, like, totally. Paid services are walled gardens per definition, and services that cater to children should have rules that are appropriate to that.

    Community-wide change would be nice, but is going to be tricky in a culture that endorses booth babes ('cause "it wouldn't be Computex without booth babes", y'know?), the Bit-Tech Babe Thread and images like this in the now thankfully closed demotivator thread (don't get me wrong: I like pictures of nubile young women as much as any man. I just don't think they have to humiliate the subject to be exciting or funny). If this is the norm, where do we draw the line and start challenging people?

    We've had vehement discussions about internet censorship before. I have always argued that censorship of some material is necessary, not because it is effective (it isn't; people can get access to it if they really want to), but because it drives home the message that such material is not the norm and should be challenged. Basically:
    • If you don't challenge certain ideas, they become acceptable.
    • If they become acceptable, they become normalised.
    • If they become normalised, acting on them becomes acceptable and normalised.
    So if we post images of sexualised females, especially with captions denigrating them, are we not normalising ideas that lead to the behaviour that female gamers complain about?
     
    Last edited: 29 Jun 2011
  18. PureSilver

    PureSilver E-tailer Tailor

    Joined:
    16 Dec 2008
    Posts:
    3,152
    Likes Received:
    235
    [​IMG]

    Seemed tangentially appropriate and a good, brief explanation of why I don't game online much...
     
    boiled_elephant likes this.
  19. leslie

    leslie Just me!

    Joined:
    19 May 2009
    Posts:
    412
    Likes Received:
    11
    Which is the only thing that will stop it.



    And with that I'm done in this thread.
    I'm not going to rehash the same things a 5th time for those to lazy to read or go round and round with those who did and just want to repeat back to me things I already said.
     
  20. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

    Joined:
    23 Oct 2001
    Posts:
    34,106
    Likes Received:
    1,610
    Been there myself:

     
Tags: Add Tags

Share This Page