News GayGamer.net subject to hate crimes

Not so long ago there was a time when as a coloured person, or woman, joining certain strata of society might invite conflict. Or walking into certain parts of town would invite conflict. Expecting a modicum of respect might invite conflict. What were they supposed to do? Pretend to be white males? Try to keep a low profile and skulk around, trying not to cause offense?

And don't we loudly advertise our sexual orientation? Think about it. On this forum, we have had the "babe thread". All girls, I notice. We regularly express our admiration for the female form, shall we say, and we may talk/brag about girls and sex (in Sam0r's case, going into Too Much Detail altogether). Our heterosexuality is rampant. In every babe wallpaper ("Show us your desktop") we post or admire, in every praise of Emzay's looks, in every sit-up-and-take-note of a female member joining the forum (remember the melt-down that Frag Doll Kitt FDUK caused?), in every joke about sex we express our heterosexuality. Make no mistake. We are Proud To Be Straight, and we let people know about it.

If a gay person does the same however, we react like a bunch of homophobes or prudes. The best we seem to manage is: "Hey now, what you do in your own bed is your business, but Jeez, do you have to advertise?!? That's just asking for trouble!"

Why should it be? Sites like gamegal.com, girlgamers.co.uk, or gamergirlz.com don't get DoS attacks or hatemail. PMSclan doesn't seem to get any trouble. We seem perfectly happy with the thought of nubile young girls pleasuring themselves with their joystick --crap, there's that heterosexuality again...

What makes gay sites different? The answer is: they're not. They do exactly the same thing that girls do, or the Dutch, do, for instance. But nobody moans nearly as much about their "advertising" who they are. But then again, prejudices about girls or the Dutch are not as rampant.

Only because they have trouble with it. Let's face it: gay people genreally don't have a problem with being gay; straight people have a problem with gay people being gay. If they hadn't, it wouldn't matter whether gay people proclaim their homosexuality or keep it to themselves --nobody would take notice. You may feel they're asking for trouble, but straight people seem only too ready to give it to them.

 

True Nexxo but I think one of the points being made was that if someone goes into a game and announces things about him/herself that have nothing to do with the game or the conversation of the moment (I'm Canadian, I'm left-handed, I'm wearing bluejeans, I'm sitting in a chair, I'm...) people would think them odd and question why they would announce that. It's true that the level of response may not be the same but it's still forcefully entering something out of context into the conversation and likely to be resented by someone. (although a guild / clan / team / ... tag shouldn't have quite the same effect)

As for "pure logic leads to atheism" I call BS on that. At best (or worst depending on your preferred view) "pure logic" leads to agnosticism. Additionally it is interesting that when given the same evidence different people can draw different conclusions and claim the same evidence as proof - Almost all "proof" requires some form of either acceptance or denial (or both) of the story behind it.

 

Clarification is needed here.
If you look back on my earlier post, you'll see that I say exactly what you're saying, but the general usage of the term 'atheists' tends to imply both 'weak atheists' (agnostics) and strong atheists (absolute atheists), since both are generally grouped together in these discussions, and the logic that leads to weak atheism is used as a basis for the philosophy of strong atheists, with further arguments tacked on.

Yes, we should have been clearer about it, but it becomes a pain in the ass to make the distinction between strong and weak atheists every time one refers to both collectively. Especially when the distinction has been made already and an explanation already given.

For the record, I consider myself to be a 'weak atheist' - If someone presents me with irrefutable evidence of God's existence then I'll accept it, but not until then, because I have no good reason to assume God's existence. Even then, they'd need a hell of a definition for 'God' and some serious evidence to get anywhere close.

Only if you don't properly examine their premises and conclusions to find out which is valid and which isn't.

Nexxo:
Paragon of sense, as always.

 

People prefer to be in a place they feel safe and can just be themselves. Gay people probably feel safer there. I'm not sure you have noticed it when you play online, but one of the most common phrases used when someone is mad and wants to insult another player or criticize some aspect of the game is "....that' is so gay....!" My heart sinks a little bit everytime someone says that and I feel a little less welcome. Unless you are the object of something like that I know it is difficult to understand.

 

The way I see it, each person is created equally. It does not matter what your preference or way of life is. The idea to attack people because of who they are is not cool in my book. But all in all if your happy the way you are then do whatever. As long as you dont break the law, hurt anyone or infringe on the rights of someone else I dont really care. But there are people that disagree with this, even being Christian I still am going to respect people's beliefs.

 

I have no problem with homosexuality, but I don't like it when its pushed in my face by TV, or certain parades. Its not me, I don't want it to be me, I don't care what other people do, so why should I have to see this? I'm sure I could never understand the topic without actually being gay.

I do disagree that they really don't need to attract attention that they're a gay clan, because angry 12 year olds getting pwned and looking for a way to psych out these gay players will use it against them. It happens with anything. If you tell everyone your black and then start kicking their ass, they might just make fun of you about it.

Gays and their inability to reproduce should be seen as a good thing. They can adopt all the homeless children generated by the straight folks constant, nonstop ****ing. The world is getting into some trouble with all these people being born, and its going to bite us in the ass in a few decades.

As long as nobody is getting killed for being a gay gamer, what does it really matter? Can't the gays be above all this like they have been for many many years? Its the same old stuff, just in a new different form. If someone is ragging on you in a game, talking trash and stuff, does it really hurt your feelings? They're just saying anything to make you feel bad, theres no real hate intent behind it. They don't sit there after stopping their game of CSS and just loath you for hours. No, they don't give a damn in real life. I think theres just a lot of people who need to be a little less sensitive to things that in the big picture don't matter at all.

my 2p worth.

 

Now you're twisting what I said. My thought/input here is simply that, if people online in an FPS game are aware that you're gay and abusing you I think it's likely you were being for want of a better term, an attention-whore. Obviously there are exceptions to this, but in the UK at least, homosexuality is fairly well accepted by a great deal of people, and if not, tollerated by the majority. Like I said, people don't insult you online if you're gay, they insult you online for making it known that you're gay. The insults just happen to take the form of anti-gay ones, just as you'll get people picking on you about any other facet of your existance you make known.

Your comparisons about blatent heterosexuality are flawed imo, but I don't have time to properly go over them atm.

 

Its amazing how many times Ive seen the sort of phrase "I have no problem with homosexuality, but why do they have to tell us". which seems to become I have no problem with homosexuality as long as I don't have to face anyone or anything to do with it. So the whole world can carry on peacfuly so long as everyone on the internet pretends to be straight/religious/non-religious/male/female depending on what the established zone normailty is.

 

I prefer "I don't care about homosexuality, as long as you don't hit on me", I've got good friends that are homosexual (male and female), I see them touching each other, kissing and so on at the pub, I don't particularly care (unless there's no-one else to speak to). But I took offense when my ex-girlfriend asked me to do something with her homosexual male friend.

 

I usually agree with most of what you say Nexxo, but the lack of the word -some- - as in "SOME" straight people have gay issues? Thankfully thesedays the "some" are in the minority. but needs noting is all

 

I don't think anyone does. They have their own site, like everyone else, and their own clan name, like everyone else. There shouln't be an issue.

I see where you're coming from. Agnosticism (or "weak" atheism) may be a better way of defining the position. But falsifiability means that you go with the theory that can be objectively tested, and successfully resists all attempts at objectively disproving it --until something comes along that manages to disproves it, and then you change the theory. It may seem like a philosophical fudge because it is hard to know what is really "The Truth", but this method of arriving at the closest, best approximation of "The Truth" has been proven to work. Science works. The key is in objective testing by factual evidence. If done properly, there is no way two people should be able to draw different conclusions. Two and two always makes four.

Why should gays have to be confronted by our heterosexuality all the time? It's bloody everywhere. On these forums, in magazines, on TV and in film, in commercials, in couples smooching in the street. You heard of the phrase: "Sex sells"? Well, it's heterosexual sex that is employed. We even have our own exclusive little rights and rituals like "wedding" and "marriage" and "family" --no gay couples allowed. We just don't notice it because to us, that is normal. It's like a fish not noticing the water that surrounds it. Society is Heterosexual with a big H. We don't do Straight Pride parades because we don't have to. Society is one big Straight Pride parade.

Having your site taken down by concerted effort, and being inundated by hate mail is not the same as a casual sneer in CSS.

I argue that we implicitly, and sometimes quite explicitly, make it known on-line that we're heterosexual on an ongoing basis. Nobody calls us attention whores for that. Nobody feels it necessary to take a pop at us for making it known how hetero we are.

It's double standards. People get anaphylactic shock at seeing a veil on a Muslim woman. Or two men kissing or just holding hands. Nobody seems to mind girls in really short skirts and small tops though, or heterosexual couples being affectionate. We'll look at topless girls on page 3 of the tabloids, but woe betide the woman who shows nipple while breast-feeding her baby in public. Let's face it: we have our norms: either you are rampantly sexual, and specifically hetero-sexual and proud of it, or you're a freak.

 

But gays are the minority. If 90% of people were gay, we would all be watching guys make out on the street, etc, and that wouldn't be weird to the gay people, because its normal. Us straights would feel out of place, even though nature says we're right, because we continue the species.

That being said, that plays a big part in all this. Heterosexuality is required for humanity to continue. Doesn't that make straight people right? Its insensitive to say that, I know, and sure some may take offense to the idea, but look at it logically; if everyone was gay, humanity would end.

Who said gays can't get married and have weddings and families? They do now, and some homophobic folks are trying to put a stop to it, but we all know they won't be able to. I personally feel that conventional weddings and all the trimmings of a heterosexual marriage maybe shouldn't belong, because its something very sacred to people. However the legal side of marriage is totally sensible. If you live with your partner and you want them to inherit your stuff when you die and things, then you have every right for that.

To sum up what I'm saying, do you not agree that our society shouldn't be hetero-focused? Then why should companies make a big deal about christmas? Isn't that unfair to all the Muslims, Jews, and Hindus in our society? They need to cater to somebody, obviously it might as well be the majority of people.

 

Not anymore. Medical miracles being what they are, you can harvest DNA from two people and have a testtube baby. Still need a woman for the womb, but women are gay too...

They're still human, and should be afforded the same respect any other person takes for granted. Descrimination because you're in a minority doesn't make it right.

True, it is a sacred rite for most cultures around the world...but remember, these people were raised in the same culture as any heterosexual, and those rites are just as sacred to them as they are to you and me.

 

You're missing the point. People are arguing that gay people make a big thing about their sexuality, and how some are confronting the public with it. Well, so do heterosexuals. It doesn't wash with me that somehow we're allowed to and they are not, because we are in the majority. The majority of people on this Earth speak Chinese. Does that mean everything should be in the Chinese language now? Numbers, like might, does not make right.

I addressed this point earlier in the thread. Homosexuality is observed in 4500 species. It is documented in 1500. It proves to have definite survival advantages. It creates tribal cohesion, prevents males (or females) from ripping each other's head off in competitive aggression within the same tribe. The offspring of male gay flamingos actually has better survival chances as two males can defend a bigger territory (the egg has been donated by a female. She benefits also: her offspring is guaranteed better survival with two dads). Some birds live in threesomes because that extra helping beek makes a difference. If it did not convey a survival advantage for the species, it would have been naturally selected out long ago. So no, straight animals/people are no more "right" than gay animals/people. Looking at it logically.

They get civil ceremonies, not weddings. Screw sacred, to be honest. Marriage was not a religious invention. It can control who marries in its church, but it does not get exclusive ownership of the concept.

No, I don't agree. I think society should be society focused. That includes gays; that includes all myriad of individual quirks and differences of the human species. Of course people can make a big deal about Christmas. As long as Hindus can make a big deal of Diwali, Chinese can celebrate Chinese New Year, and Muslims can make a big deal of Mawlid al-Nabi. Let's have the best of all worlds.

 

Well, I still stand by the fact that people who are announcing their homosexuality in things like online FPS are inviting homophobic assault. It may not be right, and chances are I'd jump to someones defence in that sort of situation simply because homophobia is intensely stupid, but the fact is that if you can't handle having insults hurled at you for no reason you shouldn't announce anything remotely insult-worthy (in the sense that a good insult can be formulated) online. And the need for an online group specifically for gays is simply not there. With girls at least there are obvious differences, perhaps partially social and partially psychological, that mean many girls seem to look for different things than what guys look for in games. But with alternative sexualities this would be an extremely dubious claim.

Regardless of your desire to brand all of us who place some of the blame here on the gay people who loudly announce their sexuality as homophobes Nexxo, I still disagree with you, and I dislike your constant "we"-ising. You may be speaking sociologically but if so you should try addressing the people here who are discussing this now, not society as you take it to be.

 

I don't think that was the case here. Here it's a bunch of gay gamers, minding their own business in their own little corner of the web.

Sorry, but you are making the dubious claim here. Being gay, like, for instance being deaf, comes with its own whole subset of psychological and developmental issues quite unique to the orientation (I mean, think about it). We even have a whole subsection of psychology devoted to it.

And anyway, if gays really are no different from straight people, how come some straight people have such great difficulty accepting them? How come some straight people freak out at the sight of two men kissing? I guess those psychological differences are not that insignificant after all.

Don't take it personally. I'm just commenting that we all have our little prejudices (including me) borne from the fact that we are a product of our socio-cultural upbringing. But if you prefer, I'll say "you", and see how personally people take that.

 

I prefer you say "you" in reference to a person, not tarring us all with the largely cynical and negative view you have of society (which there's nothing inherantly wrong with, I just find it offensive that I be laballed the same as a homophobic nazi BNP-member simply because I live in the same society as someone).

As for your argument of there being actual differences between a gay and straight person, is there any difference between a black and white person? If not, how come so many people freak out when they see a black person in their neighbourhood? It's exactly the same argument. People being offended by something arbitrary doesn't install in the issue some reason or logic.

In this case, you are correct there. I just have no problem with the destruction of the website because I dislike segragation based upon sexuality. I think it's petty and vulger, whether chosen by the generally persecuted subculture or the persecuter uberculture, I dislike it.

off-topic-edit: Just curious Nexxo, is there a reason you spelt it "borne" and not just "born"? The internet seems to think that the two spellings are variations of the same word, so I'm curious if there is perhaps a reason you would choose to use borne over born for the meaning you conveyed.

 

Erm, yeah actually, there is. Quite a bit of difference. Physical make up, suseptibility to diseases, etc. Where there isn't a difference is mental ability, which is what traditionally white people got wrong (check out the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica) and where the bulk of past racism came from.

As I said earlier, this arengument isn't stemming from homophobia but rather going too far the other way, presuming everyone is the same, when in reality they're not. As well as the obvious difference in sexual drive, being homosexual often (but of course not always) with differences, such as bases of interest. Yes I know I'm generalising here, but if there wasn't a difference, we wouldn't have sites like gaygamer.net in the first place. By it's sheer existence and popularity it proves there is a difference, so it seems rather futile to pretend there isn't.

 

What about the television shows, films, etc with husbands, wives, and kids. What about the Madi Gras parade with all the half naked women running around flashing their chests at everyone. Lots of families go to see the madi gras parade not just drunk college kids. Or the Carnival parade in Rio with hundreds half naked, sparkly clothed women. Or all the employees where you work with pictures of the wife and kids sitting on their desks for all to see. Or the football half time shows with half naked cheerleaders. What about all the strangers around you overhear talking about his wife that, her husband that, my kids whatever and their trip to Europe, day at the game, etc. Or the boyfriend girlfriend walking down the street holding hands, kissing. Or the guy and girl flirting at your favorite bar.

Do all these blatant displays of heterosexuality being pushed in your face bother you? Of course they don't, that's because they are your tribe and you feel safe and unthreatened. Humans, most mammal critters in fact, are cautious, afraid or even violent toward anyone not in their particular "tribe". I'm not specifically say that you are afraid or violent, not at all. It's just something to think about.

 

Personally, I am offended by any public display of affection. Holding hands is fine, but trying to swallow eachother's tongues is a big no-no in my book. Anything that goes beyond that (flashing tits etc) is in my humble opinion performed by whores who really should hang themselves. But that's just my opinion, and I don't profess that opinion in public (i.e. when I see two people eating eachother's face, I don't say anything, don't throw any stones, etc) because I believe they do have the right to show their affection, as much as I may disagree with that display. There's no need to publicly display any emotion (in my opinion, again) or opinion. (Something that annoyed me about my now ex-girlfriend, too, by the way - she felt that there was absolutely nothing wrong with "acting crazy" etc in public... I disagreed. A lot.)

I can understand the "need" for online communities like GayGamers. It's a place where one can both talk about games and the problems that come with homosexuality (telling the family/friends, the local community's response and society in general). I don't really see it as a need to segregate themselves from the rest of the gamer community, as opposed to for example the "gay olympic games" and stuff like that (in my book, organising special events only for the homosexual [same goes for any group/minority/community/etc] community is voluntarily segregating yourself, though of course it does not warrant any abuse).

The attacks on this site are stupid, to say the least. It's not like they're conspiring to take over the world. If anything, these script kiddies should focus their pathetic efforts on attacking the servers of the worldwide zionist-communist-illuminati-skull&bones-UN-conspiracy to have a penguin as Emperor (hehehe get it? I'm a hoot!) of the World.

Still, some good ol' nuclear war would solve all this ****. Cockroaches don't DoS eachother over sexuality.