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God and Dinosaurs

Discussion in 'Serious' started by Mighty Yoshimi, 4 Aug 2008.

  1. theevilelephant

    theevilelephant Minimodder

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    there is a difference between religion and God, science on the whole doesnt dispute religion, it only says we cant prove that God exists.
     
  2. Timmy_the_tortoise

    Timmy_the_tortoise International Man of Awesome

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    Another person confusing Religion and Theism. What we are discussing here is the existence of god. No one is saying he doesn't exist because science can't prove he exists, they are saying that if you are going to suggest that he does exist, you'd better have some viable evidence, because from the looks of it so far, there is no god.

    Personally, I think the debate is pointless, and the existence of god is completely irrelevant to my life. But don't make the mistake of thinking that these atheists are being specifically anti-religious just because they say that they refuse to believe in a god until proof is shown to them. In fact, I would clas Atheism as a religion in itself.
     
  3. EmJay

    EmJay What's a Dremel?

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    One is part of the other, in my mind. Theism vs. Atheism is a metaphysical question. You can bring science to the table if you like, but giving it the final word seems silly to me.

    Sorry, I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around that sentence. You're saying that:

    A) no-one here claims that lack of scientific proof = no god
    BUT
    B) if I want to say he exists, I'd better have evidence
    BECAUSE
    C) so far there's not much evidence, so there probably isn't a god.

    C appears to be saying exactly what you claimed no-one was saying in part A. I suspect this isn't quite what you were trying to communicate, though. Explain?
     
  4. Timmy_the_tortoise

    Timmy_the_tortoise International Man of Awesome

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    Theism and Religion are not part of each other. A Religion is a group of people who hold a similar set of beliefs and principles. A theist is someone who believes in a god. The two are mutually exclusive.

    There is no theism VS. atheism.. only two opposite beliefs, and since they are opposite, they clash.

    Anyway, As I said before, asking the question "does god exist?" is a waste of time in my opinion, since his existence is irrelevant.

    I'm saying that when there is no evidence for something existing, it stands to reason that such a thing does not exist. Ergo, is you are going to claim its existence, you are going to need evidence to back it up.
     
  5. cyrilthefish

    cyrilthefish What's a Dremel?

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    I think you can't state it much better than this, well done :)

    It is essentially what i was attempting to say earlier, but i struggle with languages :)
     
  6. jhanlon303

    jhanlon303 The Keeper of History

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    Still abstaining but Nexxo IS BACK! I can relax without having to say anything pro or con. Nexxo does the words better than me.

    John - just playing catch up. I've got the stomach flu and am resting asbestos I can.
     
  7. kennethsross

    kennethsross What's a Dremel?

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    Stomach flu? Sounds like mesothelioma is what you should really be worrying about!:eeek:
     
  8. CardJoe

    CardJoe Freelance Journalist

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  9. Arkanrais

    Arkanrais What's a Dremel?

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    not at all on my part. Atheism, it seems, most people think it is a belief system. it is not in the least. atheism is as much a belief system as bald is a hair colour, off is a TV channel and not collecting stamps is a hobby. Atheism is a lack of belief in a god. not an active denial of all possible gods per say (though strong atheism is, but they are a minority in the atheist spectrum). anything after the fact is simply not associated with atheism at all. I used to believe in ghosts and the supernatural, but didn't have a belief in a god. I was still an atheist. you could believe that the whole universe just popped into existence 120 years ago as it currently exists, but if you still don't believe in a god, you are still an atheist. most people seem to think that atheism=belief in evolution and the big bang. these people are wrong. atheism is simply the answer of 'no' to the question 'do you believe in a god or gods'. it is only because the majority of people have some kind of belief in a higher power or god(s) that the minority are characterized by by their lack of belief in the same way that in a world where everyone believed in unicorns, people who lacked belief in them would be labeled 'a-unicornists'. also note that being an atheist does not necessitate that you are smarter than the average man or that you even give half a crap about science or how we came to be. it works both ways with not adding anything after the fact in that, just like getting crazy or stupid theists, you get crazy or stupid atheists.
    agnosticism itself is not a stance on your belief in a god. it is a stance on whether you think knowledge of a god is attainable or not, so claiming agnosticism is not an answer on your theological stance. almost all of the atheists I know are 'agnostic atheists' in that they see no evidence for a god and do not believe we can obtain evidence so do not believe in one.

    to the "7 day creation wasn't 7 literal days", this is simply twisting the bible to fit what has been proven to be fact. this happens every time the bible has been refuted on a subject, the adherents to it simply go back through the verses and pull the old 'it's a metaphor' trick, the 'out of context' trick or twist the words to seem like they were right all along and it was only man's interpretation that was wrong. the bible itself is very vague and as such, can be contorted to make it seem to say almost anything. You have to cherry pick the bible in this day and age because we simply know better. the oft, cited verse of 'if a man sleeps with another man he has committed an abomination and shall be stoned to dead' is a prime example, where many have to ignore it to live peacefully these days though when it gets to the fundamentalists who take it a lit, they have to ignore in the following chapter where it says you have to stone rebellious children to death or where it says eating shellfish is an abomination.
    where people say 'believe it if you want, all the more power to ya', they seem to think (SEEM!) that religious texts are all kittens, cookies and rainbows. they are not. they advocate discrimination, prejudice, persecution complexes and various other ills that man would not normally have (for the most part). as above, the treating homosexuals bad, we do not have a very good reason for it without the ordained 'word of god' that tells us so. I have asked many christians why they thin being gay is wrong and they have never come up with a reasonable explanation, always reverting to 'its in the bible, that settles it' once they are backed into a corner over the subject. There is a slippery slope with leaving peoples beliefs alone as the moderates enable the extremists in their respective groups. I do not remember the exact argument, however Richard Dawkins put it quite well. no matter.

    Also religion itself does not require a deity. take the Buddhists. IIRC they do not believe in a god and as such are atheists, however they still belong to religion, so they are not exclusive.
    the arguments that 'well atheists like Mao and Pol Pot massacred people as well' is a weak one. They did not kill in the name of atheism, they were working under their political and societal structures to kill people. there is no 'atheist doctrine' and no reason associated with atheism to kill people, there are always other reasons that people kill people. in the context of most religious texts, as said before, they advocate prejudice and the whole 'god given' mindset and have what they consider divine authority to take that persons land or massacre those people because they live over there or they're different. That's not to say that if a theist kills someone it's not necessarily because of their god belief, though in cases it is because of their belief system that they do kill or harm people, something the atheist cannot claim to.

    I am a naturalist, rationalist atheist myself. It is the first 2 nomenclatures of that label that define my belief system in that I do not believe in what cannot be quantified, what is not of the physical world. it also has to make logical sense and as such, all propositions of gods I have heard have failed these criterion. when someone says 'this is how it is and this complex, supernatural organism exists who did all this', I ask them to provide evidence for such a claim which some go in great length to explain and some have been very good, however they still have yet to provide the proper (quantifiable, testable) evidence for such a claim (note that saying 'well science just isn't up to god yet, just like meteors/asteroids were considered supernatural once' is not evidence for your possible claim). it is also like then someone says half way though a debate about their god that 'god is unknowable' and I simply ask 'how do you know that?'.

    'scuse the rant. there are few things I will talk at length about and fewer that I am passionate about.
     
  10. Journeyer

    Journeyer Minimodder

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    @Arkanrais

    Well spoken.
     
  11. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    I said that atheism is a philosophy. That's not the same as a belief system.

    This is why I say: "Believe what you want if it works for you, as long as it does not negatively affect others".

    But it is wrong to think that things would be all sunshine and light if religion did not exist. People are tribal. There will always be expectation of conformity to arbitrary cultural norms and hierarchy, in-group vs. out-group exclusion, competition and conflict and the usual personal cruelty and selfishness. Religion is just one of the many cultural ways in which that dynamic is expressed. It makes no difference. People were cruel and caring before religion came along, and they were cruel and caring afterwards. They are cruel and caring now, with or without religion (e.g. Spanish Inquisition and Stalin; Christians vs. Humanitarians). Because that's people for you.
     
  12. kennethsross

    kennethsross What's a Dremel?

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    Quite so, Nexxo.

    Came across this quote from 'The Gulag Archipelago' (Alexander Solzhenitsyn, who has just died at the age of 89.)

    After his imprisonment in the Russian gulag of Joseph Stalin’s “corrective labor camps” Solzhenitsyn wrote:

    It was granted to me to carry away from my prison years on my bent back, which nearly broke beneath its load, this essential experience: how a human being becomes evil and how good. In the intoxication of youthful successes I had felt myself to be infallible, and I was therefore cruel. In the surfeit of power I was a murderer and an oppressor. In my most evil moments I was convinced that I was doing good, and I was well supplied with systematic arguments. It was only when I lay there on rotting prison straw that I sensed within myself the first stirrings of good. Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either—but right through every human heart—and through all human hearts.... That is why I turn back to the years of my imprisonment and say, sometimes to the astonishment of those about me: “Bless you, prison!” I...have served enough time there. I nourished my soul there, and I say without hesitation: “Bless you, prison, for having been in my life!” (The Gulag Archipelago: 1918-1956, Vol. 2, 615-617)

    I want to ask one question. From where do we derive our moral compass?
     
  13. Arkanrais

    Arkanrais What's a Dremel?

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    Here's the problem though. It isn't a philosophy. it is the answer 'no' to the question 'do you believe in god(s)' and nothing more. anything after the fact isn't related to atheism. if lack of belief in a god is a philosophy then lack of belief in 'last tuesdayism', being an a-unicornist and not believing in the purple snarfwidget are also philosophies. As I said earlier, atheism is characterized by the lack of belief in something that only has to be identified because the majority of mankind has a god belief. If lack of belief constitutes a philosophy then I can't imagine how many other philosophies I have based on the many things I have hard of my entire life but do not believe. In a world where the entire population lacks a god belief, there is no need for the 'atheist' label and as such, it's not a philosophy.

    I agree with the rest of your post. I was going to include something along the lines of what you wrote, but my post was getting too long winded for this kind of forum. I think I took it out of my previous post but theism in itself also doesn't necessitate anything other than a belief in a god. it is the additional ideas that are tacked on after the fact that are made into a philosophy, not the theism itself. an good example of atheistic philosophy would be the Buddhist religion.
    anyway, I'll get back to this later, a mate just showed up.
     
  14. Risky

    Risky Modder

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    @kennethsross - than you for the wonderful quotation.
     
  15. mvagusta

    mvagusta Did a skid that went for two weeks.

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    Is it not possible to philosophize about the absence of an afterlife? And the absence of spirtual beings?

    I think this is being done in this thread, so it can be said that atheism is a philosophy.

    This is all starting to remind of me things like "does infinity exist?"
     
  16. Timmy_the_tortoise

    Timmy_the_tortoise International Man of Awesome

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    The study/discussion of the existence of a deity is not philosophy. That is called theology.
     
  17. Arkanrais

    Arkanrais What's a Dremel?

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    as I said earlier, atheism is nothing more than the answer of 'no' to the question 'do you believe in god(s)?'. you can be an atheist and believe in the supernatural, ghosts and an afterlife, just not a god. I, just over a year ago, believed in ghosts, psychic powers, an afterlife and all manner of crap, however I still lacked the god belief, making me an atheist (I finally decided to properly evaluate the evidence I had for the supernatural without interjecting my own want of such phenomena being real, which lead me away from the 'supernatural' conclusion). what you are referring to is naturalism, not atheism.
     
  18. ShredMachine

    ShredMachine What's a Dremel?

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    No. Effect does not imply causality.

    ----------------
    Now playing: Chromeo - Mercury tears
    via FoxyTunes
     
  19. theevilelephant

    theevilelephant Minimodder

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    I'm not trying to say that proving the effect belief has will also prove God exists. I was trying to say whether or not God exists, the effect belief in God has is, on the whole positive.
     
  20. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    Disagree, sorry. A belief in God makes no difference. It just gives form to the tendency that is already there. People are cruel and caring without God and are cruel and caring in the name of God.
     

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