Windows Has anyone seen this?

I really can't be bothered taking part in another endless debate, but shall merely point out that (for me at least) what it all comes down to is simple maths:

Linux = £0.00
Windows = £70.00+ (OEM (ie: tied to one PC) XP Home)

 

Thank you!

File Systems, NTFS is old, very damn old. True. Its encryption is still on par with the competition, (i can't belive this has become a filesystem debate) but you mention EXT2/3 no defrag needed. Thats bullcrap, see what a nice raid controller does, same true with the fact that i've yet to find a non "load to ram disk" way of not wearing out compact flash so quickly? I have to do NOTHING to enable the compact flash protecting mode on NTFS. Isn't that neat? Now i freely admit NTFS is fast aproching the end of its life, and regretably the back end technology for WinFS isn't around to make it feisable yet. But its very possible to make NT run on any FS you want, indeed there are freely aviable drivers to make it use EXT3 made by these 3rd parties.

GUI, as i've said before depends on the situation, console-less servers are a different kettle of fish, and as i've said before BSD is still my favourate for those, as long as i've got a good fingers service for when it goes wrong.

My mates apache2 box, your missing the point, with MS my PC rebooting?! please be specific with flaws, i'm having to assume you mean blaster as thats the most profilic one. RPC exploite, the patch came out well over 6 months before blaster struck. In the OS community people release a "proof-of-concept" often before the patch. God damnit, keep your mouth shut until the patch is out. Do like MS do, bribe em to keep stum until the patch comes out. With patches thou, its important to make sure you don't break something vital. All the XP SP2 issues i've seen were course by bad software that was using dcom or similar. How many times has a debian managed patch messed up royal? this time last year one of my deb boxes (used for recreation, on cheap UK bw) went tits up, this was because of a perl patch that broke something, which broke the package manager. Ouch!

GUI speed, why yes, yes i have. NT is bloody impossible to leak in on an x86, even when your doing damn naughty things, as long as ur in user mode, you have to be running as a debug priviledge user, doing virus style programming techniques to slip around the cleanser. see www.0bytes.net/startsizer/ for a tutorial i made on proccess invasion, that explains what you have to do to leak. This is one of those un-backed claims, i've got a really slow eden 533 (totaly silent) which has been running 2k for the past 3 weeks without restarting. Its nippy as it ever is! I don't know where u claims about a week long PC been slowed, i'll bench that some time next month when i've moved, because if its true, i'll make a better cleanser!

You can't possibly try to claim better X performance over windows, thats just plain stupid, its like compairing the speed of a bus to a sports car, X just isn't designed to be nippy running on the same terminal. FACT.

8 month old ISO, ur really missing the point. You wanted to remove IE, hell i might decide to remove the package manager in debian (because i don't like perl or what ever scripting language its in now) thats my fault! IE is intregal part of explorer. You can't expect removing it to be easy. I still am trying to explain this to you, the amount of patches, i don't care if there performance inhancing, its a lot, most for "security". Also i didn't custom make this SP2 CD, its a bob standard eOpen one.

MCE can be bought, legally, Myth can't understand my hardware but that to be fair, is the OS's problem not the Myth's team.

Right, i'm trying to explain, if i move to linux on my desktop (which is a reboot disk swap out away) where are these apps.
mono supports .net under linux and others (.net is an open architecture remeber!)
.net is better than java in many ways, check the python.net project, it was trying to show the flaws in .net, they now freely admit its much better than java and a technology to be embraced.
Now, the point is open office is years behind MS. So my writing emails, CV and calander stuff isn't as nice.
.net 2005 ide, its all modular, any language could be inside it, its a sweet IDE, so nice to use.

I'm well aware of the history, and as i swear i said on the boards a few days ago, talking about netscape skulpting the net, isn't great as its responsible for one of the most flawed buisness ideas ever!

3 year old asp vrs php is stupid thing to post. I just think of that poster in the simpsons with people smoking, caption "50 million americans can't be wrong". So please, i endured further maths (with a strong emphasis on statistics modules, i wanted dnd!), put more thought into your statistics.

php = interpreted
.net = compiled
asp = language which is compiled to .net

check php.net, if you've some spare hardware try it (get the 120day license of server 2003). Its still young, but its very good, should give you a massive few hundread times performance boost!

You have to remeber i do use linux/unix a lot on servers, its just i'd rather have to give up a cpu, and drop to sub ghz speeds before i had it as my main desktop OS. However with the cl2 of .net, i'm no longer using apache or php or perl or apache modules, yes you get better performance than an apache module, in fraction of the effort!

 

66.6th percentile is hardly top pay, its above average but not by much, people pay 66th% as a general way of saying we want people who want to be a part of this, rather than offering top dollar. Most people who just want money seam to go work in database design

As someone who's had the unpleasent experance of making a device driver in linux, which involved usb *shudders* trust me when i say its not just market share, its more expensive to make a linux driver properly, the OS is very primative in terms of hardware abstraction, and classification. NT is MUCH better. Hell one project i was on i refused to write anything to do with the BSD device driver, the old style kernel irritates me.

I know you hate MS for their monopoly firehead, it does concerne me they have no serious competition, thats mainly Sun and SCO's fault, Open Source will never be a threat until people start getting a proper direction on all the core teams, uniting them, letting them see what the whole should be doing, rather than just their tiny part.

 

Very well explained, this is a perfect example of what the linux (and other OS) world people need to do. Group together all the patches for release on one day, for example our uni network has an "at-risk" period from 6pm on tuesday night till 6am on wed morning. This is when all the new patches are deployed and rolled out. Not all situations can have full redundency for patching. My grandfarther just knows to leave his laptop plugged in on tuesday night, thats it, no messing, no other times, every tuesday, i know if a flaw is descovered, it will be kept secret (there are even laws i strongly disagree with in the US that preserve this) until after the patch has been released.

 

Quick question, did the guy have a nice big smile when you paid enough for an XP pro license for the XP home one?

XP home OEM = <58 with vat. Should have a life expectancy of at least 2 years, but it might be an ickle bit less, so lets say £2.50 a month.

sure as hell worth that to me!

 

Right, and in the meantime my Linux install is costing $0.00/month. And it will always cost $0.00/month.

(beyond what I spend in beer to get my brother as house-call tech support, which I'd pay regardless of OS...besides, I drink beer too, and he's good company as well as useful...)

In six weeks of running Ubuntu Hoary, I haven't found anything I can't do from XP or Win98, and there's a lot that's easier in Ubuntu vs XP.

No virus checker, no spyware crap, no worries about adware crap hiding in the "free" programs I've installed in XP.

When we installed XP on this machine, it took about six hours of additional installs to get the thing secure & working. Decent web browser, all those security programs, OpenOffice, a horde of MS XP updates (inc. SP2) etc etc etc.

Device drivers alone in XP took at least an hour.

The only additional thing we installed in Ubuntu was Opera, and that's only because I've been using it for years and prefer it to Firefox (which is default install.) Total additional install time needed: ~5 minutes.

Device drivers in Ubuntu almost all auto-installed & worked right away, except for my ATI grphx card. (and that's mostly because ATI are idiots about Linux support...) OK, we needed another five minutes to install the ATI drivers, if that.

Granted, I'm a fairly skilled & computer-comfortable amateur, and my brother is certified pro computer geek, but XP just took so much longer that it can't compare to Ubuntu.

I'll probably dual-boot XP for a week or two so I can convert a couple of files that Ubuntu can't read properly, but after that I'll likely be MS-free forever. Amen...

 

Dont' you get free tech support with the 70 quid for home edition?

I don't see a phone number printed on any of my linux documentation

 

You get one free phone call:

Dude: Hi, I have Win XP Home do I get a free support call?
MS: Yes you do, thankyou for calling goodbye.

edit: TheAnimus, are you really going to quibble over £12? Besides that's the OEM version so is tied to that PC too.

For me, I was bought up in a working class family, so if I have the opportunity to get something for free or to pay £58 every ~2 years, I'll take the free option.

 

This is my openion.

I use windows on all my pc's that i use with a monitor as personaly i cant work with linux gui as i am stuck to windows and to be honest i dont need to change so i wont but for server side of things with regards to websites linux wins, windows just cant compeat with that respect!

My openion anyway

 

"I want to promote fair competition between OSes based on real facts"
I guess he has a window frame up his....(beep)...
I mean windows is pretty good, but people who know what they're doing on UNIX can achieve more.

 

WHen I installed Linux on my machine, it took 5 weeks to find that my raid drivers weren't supported, 2 weeks to find and install all the drivers, 3 weeks to make it server. On my windows machine, it took me about 8 hours to tweak and fully configure it. Any questions?


Oh btw, My friend told me he would install Linux and configure it for 200 bucks. Windows XP is 150 bucks and I can configure it myself.
And think about the money I'll waste on fuel when I drive to Linux support groups just to find out how to install something

And people who say that Linux beats Windows in Server performance is living their life in denial. I RUN my own WINDOWS SERVER on FIBER OPTICS man. It's been up for about 2 months now (Windows XP). I also use that server to run photoshop edits. It's rock stable. So don't giveme that bull on Windows sucks as a server.

 

One of the points on the website that struck me was this:

So what? They're all in use in Windows and OSX as well. Plus UNIX fanatics did invent the internet, that's a fact.

This guy obviously knows nothing about his internet and protocol history. Kerberos certainly isn't.

 

ahahahah thats guy knows NOTHING.

microsoft is good for what it is i.e its made for the dumb asss in the world
and with linux you need to know what your doing to get the best out of it.



and that guy need to read up on how to make a website coz it sucks too lol

 

that's the only reason that people think linux is better - because you gotsta be more cleverer to use it properly, duh.

they've both got their uses, it's got nothing to do with how clever you are. you cant run [all] games on a unix system, and i happen to enjoy PC gaming, so that's the fall of nix for me. i also dont want to have to learn all those unix commands when i can just as easily have a gui. and that crap about it being more stable is just that. if you actually play about with the registry and turn off some of the stuff that MS feel is necessary to turn on by default then you can have great uptimes (my PC only goes off in powercuts/hardware installations)

before all the nix fanboys have their say - this is all my opinion and why Windows is more suitable for me as an individual...seeing as we're all different, i fail to see how out of 2 totally different OS's such as the examples here, there can be one that is "better"

besides, the thing about that site that concerns me is the fact that he's broadcasting the IP address of every single person that visits his site. clever guy

 

For one thing, what you speak of as to why Windows cant run for long periods of time is sorta the exact reason I hate Windows. . .

Now, I would like to restate my first post in this thread. The reason I feel Linux is better is for the simple fact that is Open Source, and it can beat Windows in some areas. There is no doubt Windows is good for some things, like playing games. However, simply because Linux is Open Source I like it far, far better.

L J

 

Alright guys, I'm gonna settle this right now. Microsoft didn't steal Internet Explorer from Netscape, they stole it from an even smaller company that made a program called Mosaic. Some of you out there that are in yourt 20's might still remember it. If you go into your "About Internet Explorer", you'll see it plain and clear, but for those of you that are inevitably running Linux, I've made a screenshot for you, because I'm a nice guy.

 

Ah ive awalys wondered what happend to Mosaic. Glad to see it went into good hands. iirc, mosaic was the first browers that supported graphics.

 

Right first of, trigger, when you quote a price, try to do it acuratly, because if your points relying on it, when its found to be wrong and in your favour, it reflects badly on you.

Microsoft, unix the net. Who gives a **** its NOTHING like it was when i started to use it. Hell my first connection made HTTP pointless because at 2400 baud, its painful.
Now Unix from major venders started the net, this was not open source.

If open source makes better developement how come linux as a kernel, is technically piss poor? I know they want POSIX compatability, but no matter what you say about windows vrs linux, you can't claim that the linux kernel is as technically "good" as NTs.
(anyone who wants to know more about this, feal free to bug me outside of this thread, but first know i'm not spouting crap, this is my own experiance, i've messed around with device drivers, and inter process at kernel level, with both linux).

Open source does not mean better development. This is clear by what we see, open office isn't moving forward as fast as windows, espesually with really awsome new technologies such as tablet pcs and co-operative working. (but hey MS just bought some frim which already had a intresting solution!)

The other problem is open source tends to get departmentalised, and no one think of what the overall goal is.

Open source is often not needed. If i want to use an API, i want good documentation, i don't want some C code. Often when ur dealing with OS level stuff, you will want to debug it in action, windows has symbol files which give you all the help you need. This isn't open source, its orgmentated machine code that your running right now. This is often what you want.

Why change it? Really when your working with someone elses work, that they are still working on themself, you shouldn't modify it, you should use it, not change it. Otherwise when they change the code ur stuffed. Now often you don't need the code, you want a module. You want CLEARLY defined ins and outs.

When you want to change something in the module itself comes the problem, but as always with open source you shouldn't run off and change it yourself, you should go talk with the people who's module it is. But this is the only time the problem happens, because you can't just send that team some code you've made. (but often thats not aprorpeate, as the effort for them to integrate into their design plans is more than the code you've written, if you're having to write a few thousand lines, it should really be a module of its own!).

Now i know people might be saying i'm biased because i can read assembly fluently, and i often prefer to read it running as its quicker to see whats going on.

Now a lot of people have the whole fan boy thing around unix, but truth is there is no software on NT that makes your system slow down the longer it runs for (except mabye acountancy stuff (logs for security reasons) but you can disable that).

Its upto the software, theres plenty of unix software which is badly written, but the thing i find most absurd about that claim is linux's proccess management isn't as good as NT, NT a proccess can't easily leak, linux it can esp true when you compare un-restricted users, as linux has no "user-mode admin".

No viruses on unix, yes tell yourself that and you'll be fine. The reason ur files are growing exponetually isn't a virus, is an un-requested feature surpless. (this is grade A ********, if i had my way a statement like that would get you banned from all discussions because you clearly are missing any knowledge on the matter).

A quick quesiton, all you people who like it because its Open Source, how many of you have produced programs? I know dear '17 will have, but say mr Sanders?

 

Jeez, TheAnimus are you really going to be that pedantic? I actually got the price of £70.00 from Insight Direct UK who we use at work for IT purchases, so yes it was accurate, just not the same price as your supplier.

Oh and on your point re: virii, on a properly configured *nix system even if a virus were created and a user had been stupid enough to run it, it would only affect their files, and in a worst case scenario may fill up the partition on which /home resides (and any vaguely competent admin knows to put /home on it's own partition). I'm sure the same is true of a properly configured Windows system, I just wanted to point that out.

 

People are been pedantic over £2.50 a month! (well MS say all their products have a 10 year life span, so you *could* say 50p a month).

Virus is a term that anoys me, i prefer malicious program, as often they are invoked by the user. Worms that self prophegate are a differn't matter thou, but anything that requires user interaction, seams weird to me, as its doing what the user wants, something that uses a buffer overflow, or injection attacks.

Now on this point, as windows has the most machines which stuff will happily run on, its true that windows has a mirrad of virus ready to dupe you.
Same is true with IE vrs FireFox, both have bugs, but as 90%+ browse with IE, you target IE.
Security by obscurity is very valid, i use this to great extend with my personal mail archive, its not the box all my mail goes to when it hits my domain (its hard to find the box) and its running a CPU type few people know about, those who do, wouldn't want to read my mail (or if they did they'd ask!). That box is using a BSD distro, which i'm sure will have bugs that have to be found out, and because its not my life, its quite probable it will take me a good fortnight to patch it, as the CPU won't run any x86 instruction, and few people know where it is, its perfectly safe. I know that might sound messy, but its the best way of easily been secure.

just anyone who says virus free, is asking for it. less viruses, true, but you have to be an ejit, or trusting to get one (i'd like to think i've only ever been the latter!).