LOL Hi everybody

Not at all! I did pause when I typed it but couldn't remember whether cite was correct, thanks for pulling me up on it.

Yes it does...... Are you saying that is the main reason for the war? Religion?

 

Oil comes to mind

 

ya, the twin towers were attacked for their precious oil

the US' retaliation may have had multiple behind it reasons but theres only one reason we were attacked in the first place.

 

Less talk, more cheesecake.

 

Excuse me? Did you just say that christianity is not a religion? I would love to see the reasoning behind that statement. There might be something I'm missing here, but for the life of me I can't see what that might be. Atheism is not the same as nihilism, and christianity is a religion. Those are the facts.

Sure, there might be atheists who are also nihilsts (though I've yet to meet a single nihilist), and I know there are christians who do not see themselves as part of a religion even though they clearly are.

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're getting at here.

I don't think you're mad for stating that atheism is bad for us, but I do think you're somewhat deluded. Do you have an argument to go with the statement? I've been an atheist all my life, and I've had quite a good life, and so far nothing bad has happened to me because of my atheism. Hence as far as my personal experience goes; your statement is wrong.

Also; cheesecake.

 

Christianity is not considered to be a religion by Christians. Roman Catholicism is a religion, Buddhism is a religion and Judaism is a religion. Christianity has only ever been called a religion by non christians or members of other God fearing religions. With all due respect, it is going to be immensely difficult for me to convince you otherwise because as you quite clearly stated, you have been an atheist your entire life. The only thing I can suggest is that you Google "Christianity is not a religion" and read for yourself. Here is a good starting point. I'm sure you're asking "what is it then, if it's not a religion?!" the Christian answer to which is; Christianity is a personal relationship with God and a faith in the fact that the Bible (the Bible, not the Koran or any other) and it's teachings about God are correct and true.

The part of your post that I bolded. That's wrong - your opinion of me as a Christian is that I *think* I'm not a part of a religion, but that's the opinion of someone looking from the outside in. I know that the faith that I practice - Christianity - is not a religion. Religious groups call themselves religious because they are religions, but Christians rebuke those who call their faith a religion because they know that Christianity is not a religion, it's a true faith and a relationship with God.

I know this topic is heading way off course, but lets keep it civil. No reason why we can't discuss this - the subject of the topic has long since gone anyway.

 

re·li·gion

noun
1.
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

2.
a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.

3.
the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.

4.
the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.

5.
the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.


Well, it seems to me that the very definition of the word "religion" disagrees with you. Furthermore, is it not a bit arrogant and presumptuous to state as a matter of fact that your religious beliefs are an intimate relationship with god, whereas muslims or catholics are simply superstitious? You did not use those words per se, but that is what it boils down to.

I have however seen the statement "christianity is not a religion" many times, and every time I've seen it in use it has been used by fundamentalists - more specifically young Earth creationists and rapture adherents. Now, I do not have the impression that you belong to either of these groups, but it goes a long way in explaining why I can't be bothered to google the phrase again.

Also, I'm quite sure that if you asked a muslim the same question; "What is islam?" You would get the same answer; "Islam is a personal relationship with Allah". My point? Every single religion on the planet (with the possible exemption of Buddhism and certain pantheistic faiths) has followers who will state the same thing; "Our religion is the only true religion because it involves a personal relationship with (the) god(s)."

And with your final point I agree completely; there is no reason why this can't be discussed in a civil and rational manner. So my appeal to anyone wishing to jump in is this; please keep it civil.

 

That is a very narrow viewpoint, you think the attacks were purely based on religious doctrine?

 

The inequation symbol means not equal to or that two things do not represent the same value. Unicorn was correct in making that statement.

 

I don't think Atheism is bad. I think potentially to live without faith could be bad. I think you can have faith though and not be religious.

Faith
noun
1.
confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2.
belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3.
belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4.
belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5.
a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.

I had a fairly religious upbringing and I like to think I explored Christianity to the best of my ability (or maybe to the depths of my intellectual ability), as well I like to think I'm not completely culturally ignorant and have at least a basic understanding of a number of religious beliefs, especially those i'm likely to encounter often. But with all this, I seem to have developed and grown to be fairly agnostic. I have a lot of respect for people and their religious beliefs and also their commitments and changes they make to their lives.

But I don't think I live without faith. Just not necessarily faith in a God/Deity.

 

What would your faith be in if not a God/Deity?

I count myself as agnostic, you cannot disprove the existence of God so you have to allow for the possibility just as much as you have to allow for a chocolate teapot orbiting Mars. I just do not have that need within my life for any form of religion and never have done.

My issue is not with individuals having religious beliefs but with organised religions such as the Catholic church allowing its doctrine to cause harm to Africans by teaching that condoms increase the chance of HIV infection.

 

4.
belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.

I got faith in alot

 

I do know what the inequation symbol means, that was not what I had a problem with. My problem was his assertion that christianity is not a religion when it clearly is a religion. It is a system of belief concerning the cause of the universe as the result of divine intervention by some superhuman entity - or, if you will, a deity.

In what way was he correct in stating that christianity is not a religion?

 

[edit] I've been ninja'd several times since I started writing this, I got a phone call halfway through typing. This post is in direct response to Journeyer's post #588]

Once again I have to refer to my earlier comment that you are someone on the outside looking in. Someone who hasn't had the Christian teachings or upbringing that I have. Someone who by their own admission doesn't even acknowledge the existence of deities, never mind God. The definition of religion that you wrote, which includes the Christian faith in its description... who wrote that dictionary definition? Did God write that dictionary entry? Did Mary, or Allah, or Buddha? Nope, a man wrote that - a man who may or may not have been a Christian, an atheist, a Buddhist or a Jew. Religion in a dictionary is just a word, but religion in real life is a way of life, a practice, including a set of rules based on the Bible that in some cases have been supplemented by other texts.

I'm only taking one example here - at no point in my life have I ever been taught that as a member of a Christian church and as a Christian myself, do I have to kneel on a prayer mat at sunrise and sunset every day and recite a series of pre-written prayers to God. That's a practice that is taught to and expected of members from the Muslim religion. Like I said, one example only, and only chosen because it was the first one that came to mind.

In that description above, it is mentioned that religion is the practice of religious beliefs. Christians don't practice religious beliefs; they only try to live their lives as God expects them to according to what is written in the Bible. It does not say anything in the Bible about me waking up at dawn and praying to God whilst kneeling on a prayer mat as the sun rises - it teaches Christian prayer in a completely different manner, and it doesn't involve any ritual practice, of any sort.

Christians are neither arrogant nor presumptuous about their beliefs or the beliefs of others; they are merely blessed with the teachings of the one true God, from the Bible. Christians do not look on religions like Roman Catholicism, Islam, Judaism or any others as being superstitious or wrong, at the end of the day someone who believes in God and lives their life according to his commandments is a Christian and has every right to call themselves that, but it does not qualify Christianity as a religion. The very word religion comes from a Latin derivative which means "to bind up". Christians - the Christian believers who do not consider Christianity a religion, believe that Jesus did not come to bind us up in rules and regulations, but rather that he came to set us free to be as God intended us to be, and that is one of the fundamental reasons why I and my entire faith consider Christianity being referred to as a religion to be wrong.

I could really go on all night about this, but at a certain point - and I believe I've just reached that point - I'll be preaching to you, and I really don't think it's appropriate for me to be doing so. To be perfectly honest, I wouldn't want a Muslim member of the bit-tech community preaching to other members from the Quran, so I won't preach to you from the Bible. I have, however, tried my best to explain to you the fact that and the reasons why Christian people do not consider their faith (which is a word used to describe their beliefs) to be a religion. I hope I've been a little clearer now than I was before, I know it's a complicated subject to get your head around.

 

That isn't what he said in the quote you used in your first response and that is what I replied to (I hope you can see why I misunderstood?).

I can see that Unicorn subsequently said that Christianity is not a religion and I agree with you on that point. I don't think that you can safely claim that because you believe that your interpretation of the religious texts are correct that others differing viewpoints are less valid.

Edit: (Unicorn I didn't see your last post before writing this one so things look a little bit out of order).

Unicorn, I would be interested to know which version of the Bible you hold to be correct? The King James revision? I understand if you want to just leave this issue and not answer but I am genuinely interested.

 

The Church denomination that I belong to holds the KJV as it's traditional "correct" version, so yes, you could say that I have been taught most of what I know from the KJV, but in actual fact the scripture readings in our Church services are taken from the New King James Version, and I have only ever owned and personally read the New International Version - a Youth bible when I was younger and more recently a modern NIV Bible. Different Churches within denominations preach from different translations of the Bible, but they are all derived from the same original version (which for us is considered to be the KJV). So for example, a Church of my denomination in a different town that I regularly attend but do not belong to has a young minister who preaches from the NIV, simply because he is preaching to a younger congregation and the NIV is easier for young people to understand. My own Minister reads from the NKJV because that's a tradition of our Church and our denomination, and partly because we have a smaller number of young congregation members and an older (he's middle aged) minister.

 

re·li·gion

noun
1.
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

Furthermore, and for the sake of argument I'm assuming you're not already married, when you get married will the seremony take place in a church? Is that not a religious ritual? When you are to be buried, will the seremony not take place in a church? Is that not a religious ritual?

No, but from your own words, it does involve prayer - just in a different manner. Hindus also pray in a different manner, as do the jews, and of course the muslims you yourself referenced.
Christianity may not require or involve the seremonial burning of incense, or the strict adherence to kneeling prayers towards a holy shrine, but there are rituals involved for christians as well. Marriage in a church is purely seremonial - it's a religious ritual - and you'll still have to register with the state afterwards.

To me that looks like a contradiction.

Then I suppose you will find these quotes, which are attributed to Jesus by the bible, to be somewhat inconvenient:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17)

"Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21)

"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17)

“He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” (Matthew 15:4-7)

No, I do not wish to quote some of the more disturbing laws specified by Leviticus, nor to I wish to bring up anything in particular from the old testament due to the graphic imagery contained within. But clearly the above quotes state that the laws of old should not be ignored, and that there are indeed requirements for any and all of Jesus' followers.

I appreciate that, and I do understand that neither of us has any realistic hope of changing the other's mind. I still maintain though, that christianity is a religion by definition, but at least now I know better what you were getting at. That doesn't mean I agree, but at least I know your reasoning a little better.

 

Mods, please close this thread. I think this is just getting out of hand, and the subject has been since diverted from a place for new members to join, to a little joke about how some guy is a Christian, to a great big argument.

Think about it. Prospective Bit-Techers will look at this thread and think - WTF is wrong with this community, and go.

Seriously, just get rid of it.

 

Agreed, Start another thread and debate it as much as you like in fact we can all join in and have a mass-debate lol

 

There has been no arguing and there were certainly no jokes made about me. I don't know where you got this from. The thread itself was turned into a massive joke just two or three pages in - there is no reason whatsoever for this thread to be closed. It's actually interesting for me to hear the opinions of someone like Journeyer.