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Education How strict are employers

Discussion in 'General' started by GAVI, 4 Apr 2012.

  1. GAVI

    GAVI What's a Dremel?

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    After nearly screwing up my first year at uni and then finally really screwing up in my second year Ive taken a year off with the intial plan of going back in September to carry on with my degree.

    I am working now (nothing fancy just something to do while Im back home and make a bit of money) but Ive also been looking at what sort of jobs I could get when Im done and that was actually getting me more motivated to go finish uni. However, I keep swinging from wanting to go back and not.

    The sorts of jobs I was seeing were things like DB/Unix/Network admin etc which I think I would enjoy and seem to offer decent salaries. So something I've been thinking is that, in my opinion, while my degree (Computer Science) does obviously teach things relevant to these jobs I think that experience may be more important in these cases. For example, for networking we learn about all the relevent protocols etc but in such a job what you'd be doing is actually setting up/administering networks which isn't covered as much by the degree. On the other hand though, a lot of employers seem to "require" a degree as well as experience.

    So Id like to get some of your opinions on whether I need my degree to pursue such a career. How strict are employers when they say "IT related degree required"? I know I probably wont be able to to straight to such a job but what do you think my chances are of being able to work my way up to one: (a) in general; (b) to one that is advertised as requiring a degree.
     
  2. K404

    K404 It IS cold and it IS fast

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    In general, I would say it depends how smart the employer is and.... if they're using a recruiter or not.

    recruitement agencies, in my opinion, are "blind" box tickers and if they have a job spec that includes "degree," if you ain't got one, they'll not offer an interview.
     
  3. Votick

    Votick My CPU's hot but my core runs cold.

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    Anyone with experience or a industry recognized qualification will 95% of the time be hired over someone who has just come out of Uni with a degree.

    Have you looked at doing any qualifications? Comp TIA etc?

    This will make you more appealing to IT employers.
     
  4. 3lusive

    3lusive Minimodder

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    I'd do a check to see what qualifications the majority of employers are asking for in relation to those specific jobs. If the majority do require degrees, you may be shooting yourself in the foot by not completing your degree now.

    Think about it - you probably only have this one chance to get a degree now while (I assume) you're young and have already completed a year of the course. With tuition fees increasing etc, I doubt you would want to start it again later in life (when you may have more responsibilities too). A degree is with you for life, whether or not it will help you in the immediate short term.

    My feelings would be that IT related careers are already oversubscribed with applications, and you will in most cases need a degree to even get an interview, save for outstanding experience. That isn't to say there will be exceptions.
     
  5. Picarro

    Picarro What's a Dremel?

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    What a degree does is prove that you had the stubbornness to sit down and pull through. Even if the degree is not completely perfect for the job it still shows your potential employer that you took the time to do something and do it right. I would always suggest getting a degree, and then some qualifications on top of that.
     
  6. GAVI

    GAVI What's a Dremel?

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    The good thing about the year and a half of uni Ive done is that I gone the basics pretty much evry area I could go for (networking, databases, LAMP) which I think for me at least is the hardest bit because learning it on my own I wouldn't have known where to begin. Now I feel I capable of building on this on my own quite easily.

    Votick I havnt really looked into it well but I have thought about it. Might do so now.

    Also as far as the jobs in my country for now I have only looked at what I could find on online recrutment sites (which isn't really how Id actually go about it. I just wanted to get an idea and I was actually surprised t find anything at all coming from such a small place) so I dont know how representative that is of what is available here. Again, Ill probably look into it by going the employment office or whatever and see what I can find.

    One thing I can say that gives me hope is that there are not many people from here that go to study Computer Science or even Software Engineering or anything like that (maybe a few do ICT) while there should be plenty of opportunities as we have many Gaming Companies for example which need what I mentioned above (DB/Unix/Network) admins which Im pretty sure must come mostly from abroad likely via those recruitment sites. (Yes my country is that small, I could say that with a fair bit of certainty lol)
     
  7. badders

    badders Neuken in de Keuken

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    I would agree that a degree is not the be-all and end-all.

    When I'm looking at CV's (primarily for 2nd/3rd level support), a degree is not something I look for, and I'll rate a good amount of experience over someone fresh out of Uni - most people I've met who are fresh out of University are green as grass - they don't settle into themselves and learn to think in the right way without experience.

    This is not to say I won't interview someone with a degree and a little experience - if they can convince me in the interview that they have the technical savvy, the ability to troubleshoot in the right way, and can work independently as well as part of a team, then they will reach the next stage, same as everyone else.
     
  8. supermonkey

    supermonkey Deal with it

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    Over here, many employers require degrees for technical fields but are willing to trade a certain number of years work experience for each level of degree (e.g. 5 years experience for a bachelor's degree, 10 years for a masters, etc.). Typically the number of years that they are willing to consider in lieu of a degree is commensurate with the level of the job. Entry level jobs may only require a year of experience or less, but managerial positions would obviously require more.

    I don't know if employers on your side of the pond have something similar.

    Edit: "IT" is one of those nebulous terms that covers a wide variety of jobs within the field. As an example of what I described above, one of my friends has two degrees - Latin and Psychology. He works in IT because he loves technology. To get where he is today he spent a lot of time learning on his own while completing various certificates. He then started out at the bottom and worked his way up. A degree in a computer-related field may help you establish industry contacts, and it may help you develop specific job-related skills. On the other hand, 4 years of college is very costly, and if it isn't absolutely required then you may do well to get out there and start working/learning.
     
    Last edited: 5 Apr 2012
  9. Sarakon

    Sarakon The German

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    I know one of my friends was not promoted in his job for not having the relevant degree, but after that he got the promoted position at a different firm (he had a good 4 years exp in the field). I would say rather do it just to be on the safe side and it cannot harm.

    At the moment I am doing 2 years of support for IBM just to get the experience and then get the degree that I want to do. Armed with both you have the best chances
     
  10. mucgoo

    mucgoo Minimodder

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    University in the UK was £3,000 a year + living and its just gone up to £9,000 a year with very favourable government financing so cost isn't really such a barrier over here. Its also 3 years for a Bachelors and 4 for a Masters.


    I'd base it largely on how the next year goes.
    You've got one year left and two thirds done. A half completed degree will be viewed as near valueless while if you can scrape together a second or third; well even a third class degree is worth one year.

    Then again if in a year time your in some fantastic work experience or job, enjoying it and believe there is strong scope too move up returning to complete you degree and thereby losing that opportunity it may not be worthwhile.
     
  11. GAVI

    GAVI What's a Dremel?

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    Im not ruling out uni yet but I've been looking into Oracle certifications as DB administration is something Id like to do. However the training Oracle offers is expensive (£1/2k for OCA for 11g Aministration). And then are are books available which supposedly teach you what you need to know but from reviews they dont seem to be too good and I could see why a book may not be able to match "proper" training. Has anyone with experience with Oracle certifications either through the training of self study through books, got any advice?
     
  12. CopperX

    CopperX IT Support BOFH @ a Uni.

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    Essentially the choice is up to you.

    A degree may or may not necessarily help you in terms of IT-specific knowledge but it does teach you 'transferable skills' such as the element of team working, time, punctuality, pressure, ability to complete long-term goals (i.e. the 3/4yrs of a degree) etc. This allows you to take these into any job and adapt to change quickly.

    The IT industry certifications are wise to complete, not only do they give you an edge in getting a job but are a route when in the IT industry to completing skills and climbing the career ladder.

    I have CompTIA A+ certification (completed when I was in my 6th form and paid for by my school as they are an Maths & IT College) and experience in designing Oracle Databases and Java thanks to the Oracle course my 6th form also ran. Both of these lowered the UCAS point limit for me to get onto Uni courses (this was helpful as I didn't do too well in my A-Levels) purely because the Uni's knew I was at least able to complete the technical side no problem.

    The degree I chose to do is more-or-less an Informatics one. Soft systems and business rather than major programming or other stuff and thats purely because I see myself into the Systems/Infrastructure Management side of IT and not programming/development.

    My placement year was done at the same University I study at but within their main Computing department (the one that looks after all major IT systems) and out of the 7 other students that applied, I was the one that got the job because of my A+ cert (it was a 1st/2nd line helpdesk role with elements of telephony and business systems admin). I loved the job I did there. I was working within a small team that looked after the 2000+ staff over 3 geographically-different campuses and was given enough responsibility straight away (knowing all the admin accounts & passwords for business critical systems etc even though I'm still a student and even near full access to the student records database too) and felt like part of a major team. They were sad when I had to leave and another placement student took over as I was the first student do work in that department.

    A degree and IT certs have pro's and con's. Ideally you want to combine the best of both worlds and do both but its a personal decision. Especially in light of the massive tuition fee increases (nearly all Uni's that are charging the full £9k amount are actually making a profit off the new students that are going).

    Since I'm in my final year (another 6 weeks before I finish my exams), I've had the chance to look at the graduate opportunities available and have basically scrapped the idea of working for major, big FTSE100 style companies because their entry requirements are too high for me (seriously stupid too: why do I need 300 UCAS points to do IT Helpdesk jobs????) or not in the areas I want (too many development/programming graduate positions and not enough systems/infrastructure ones). I'm basically either going to apply for normal but graduate based IT jobs or wing it and ask the Uni if I can come back to work there lol.
     
    Last edited: 10 Apr 2012
  13. boiled_elephant

    boiled_elephant Merom Celeron 4 lyfe

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    Absolutely true. I made a point of asking all my interviewers whilst jobseeking whether my degree had any bearing and whether its absence would have affected their decision, and they all said that it didn't make much difference either way - experience is what counts.

    If you have no experience at all, a degree puts you above someone with no degree and no experience, but someone with experience and no degree will still beat you to it.

    And employers who list a degree in the job requirements are just douchebags, and are in a minority. I have a degree, but I'd avoid applying for those ones on principle, because it betrays a thoroughly bureaucratic, narrow-minded and impractical mentality.

    There are very specific exceptions to all this, of course, like medicine and astrophysics and archeology, but chances are if you're looking at those you already know perfectly well that a degree is the only way in.
     
  14. adam_bagpuss

    adam_bagpuss Have you tried turning it off/on ?

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    unless a degree is required for the job. My missus is a speech therapist so she has a degree in speech and language therapy.

    There are plenty of jobs that require a degree and it doesn't make them douches it just means that a certain level of knowledge is required to even start the job.

    There are also plenty of companies that use a degree as a indicator of education, commitment, ability to learn and ability to meet deadlines. Many administrative management qualities are indirectly taught at university.
     
  15. 3lusive

    3lusive Minimodder

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    And law and teaching and just about any other decent profession which pays a good wage and doesn't restrict you to monotonous, repetitive work. It's true, of course, that many jobs don't require degrees, but they will most definitely be low paid low skilled ones, unless you're in something like sales and can make good commission (or alternatively you began at the bottom and got promoted). Or of course if you had a trade qualification - there are many well-paying plumbers, joiners and electricians, but it's finding consistent work that is the problem in those types of jobs, especially in this economy.

    There are exceptions, but please show me some 'good' jobs which pay well, offer pensions and other benefits, and do not make you work horrible shifts which do not require university degrees?

    Saying that you can 'work your way up' is wishful thinking, especially in 2012, and I wouldn't feel confident basing my prospects on that old cliché if I hadn't got a degree.

    Also, what types of jobs were you applying for then if you weren't applying for ones which required a degree?
     
  16. deathtaker27

    deathtaker27 Modder

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    Erm does this one count?

    http://islandreefjob.com/

    I will admit I got my job through the university I am currently studying with so ask around, send e-mails from your uni e-mail account (if they see something different to hotmail or gmail ect they might get interested)

    try anything that makes you stand out, I remember one of my old lecturers use to have a bright and colourful CV to get attention from the pile of CVs, and it worked
     
  17. boiled_elephant

    boiled_elephant Merom Celeron 4 lyfe

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    Engineering, plumbing/building/carpentry/joinery/electrical engineering, teaching, military service, IT, management, independent business, architecture, art, graphic design, website design (self-employed or otherwise).

    Those're just the ones I can name off the top of my head. Granted, it's not always as easy to get into them without a degree (in terms of effort), but it's always cheaper - around £24k cheaper. Most engineering disciplines pay you to learn; teaching and architecture start from internships and work experience, which do not require a degree; design work roles just require knowledge and a good portfolio, which in turn can be self-taught, saving you the cost of a degree.

    And for the record and to pre-empt, saying that manual vocations are 'boring' or 'low-skill' is narrow-minded and mistaken. I never once had as much fun, fulfilment or work satisfaction in my 3 years doing humanities at university as I did in my two weeks of joinery work experience when I was 15. What I was doing was ostensibly boring and repetitive (just as humanities are ostensibly interesting and rewarding), but I still preferred it. That wouldn't be everyone's experience of it, I'm sure - university application rates prove just how many people abhor physical work but find bureaucratic work rewarding - but it's still naive to assume that nobody wants to do those jobs that you perceive to be dull or low-skill.
     
    Last edited: 11 Apr 2012
  18. Margo Baggins

    Margo Baggins I'm good at Soldering Super Moderator

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    this is the job advert that got me my current job

    "We are seeking to recruit a part time IT Helpdesk engineer. The hours are negotiable but we expect that to start with it will be approximately 2 days a week (whether 2 days, four mornings, etc) with the intention of going full time in the future. The work will include:

    - First and second line support involving call logging and assistance with problem resolution.
    - Technical assistance and system administration (making changes for our clients as they request them).
    - Server and network preventative maintenance checks.

    There may also be an opportunity to assist with installation projects and other onsite work at clients.

    We would like to hire someone who has a good, patient telephone manner, has exposure to PC and server support (mostly Windows based), can meet schedules and has an appreciation of providing good support to clients. The right candidate for us may not be the most technically proficient – but will be the most adept at service and willing to learn.

    If you are interested in this role, or know someone suitable that is, we would be delighted to hear from you and please contact us off list.

    Sorry but no agencies, canvassers or sales reps please.

    Thanks for reading this post."

    This came through on a mailing list that my friend was a member of, is a list for technology folk, designers and web people - if you can find a mail list like this in your area, it is great as people use them quite alot for finding freelancers etc.

    It was only a part time position I applied for, doing basic stuff, but now 6 months on, I do more than full time hours, and have my own portfolio of clients who I support and provide consultation - as well as being given plenty of projects to get stuck into and getting the opportunity to go on some great training. I was over qualified/experienced for the original job they had advertised, but after my interview and meeting the guys I could tell that jumping on that part time position would open alot of doors for me.

    So I didnt need any qualifications or a degree (though I have both) to actually get this job - but they took me on for 3 months as a part time freelancer before they offered me a full time contract within the company. But this is also a very small company, so they do do things quite differently here.
     
  19. 3lusive

    3lusive Minimodder

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    The problem is many of those jobs, while I agree are decent professions, would not provide you with a consistent and secure living in this economy. I know many friends who have trades but cannot find work, and if they do they have to travel miles out of town to get it. Or have instead had to find factory jobs and the like, many of which are the sort of rote and repetitive and exhausting jobs I was referring to before (not trades).

    Furthermore, I'd question the realistic chances of getting into some of those other professions without a degree today. E.g. All teaching careers require at least a degree and then a teaching qualification to become a qualified teacher in the UK - that's for primary, secondary, college, and university (unless you mean 'teaching' in the sense of a teaching assistant, cover supervisor or some other non-standard teaching position, but those of course would hardly give you a well paid career, or offer you the same self-management and autonomy which makes those jobs appealing).

    In addition, how many professional architects don't have at least a degree in it? I don't believe that it's a realistic career path unless you have one. AFAIK it is in fact one of the most demanding types of undergraduate programs you can study with something like a minimum of 5 years doing the course and then a few years of on the job training.

    I did not mean that. I meant to exclude trades and manual vocations from the boring part. I understand that many electricians/joiners/carpenters/plumbers/builders would not describe their jobs as boring but instead describe them as satisfying and therapeutic (and I completely agree that they can be!).

    Furthermore, I would not describe them as low skilled either. I think some who understands the complex workings of an automobile, like a mechanic, is more 'intelligent' than someone who can string together a few paragraphs in a politics essay (if you get my drift).
     
    Last edited: 11 Apr 2012

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