Well i recently asked someone i have used for cables etc to make me up some din shorties as an experiment. Which went rather well. He is now retailing them on ebay and in his shop shortly i think. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3280&item=5787228254 is the link and if you couldnt guess my name is dominic chapman
Isn't that the same concept as tying the input pins of unused chip inputs to ground or Vcc to avoid interference issues? Could you engineer a connector so it automatically grounds the inputs if no cable is connected? It is already done with 3.5mm connectors, but what about for DIN? It's a much neater solution.
It basically connects all the pins together, so in a phono plug it would be positive and negative connected together or signal and ground. In a din its left channel signal, right channel signal and common ground (usually). Yes you could make some form of connector to short when nothing is in, but when your cables cost £100's your not going to want to add a new connector to your expensive amp voiding a waranty and then have to change all your cables. edit: forgot to say these have been available for phono (rca) sockets for some time now (30 years+) as you can imagine its a large contact area on these compared to the small pins in a din connector. So you would notice more of a difference with some form of phono shorty
I'm fairly sure there is no RFI involved. It's just EMI. RFI is far beyond the frequency range any home or pro audio equipment works at (well, perhaps excluding high end AD converters, etc... but that's all digital). It's really just a terminology issue though. Colloquially, RFI and EMI mean the same thing, just don't tell that to an engineer. I'm suprised there are no internal pull downs. I would think something along the lines of 100K at the least would be a good idea. Also, what happens if there is some sort of active circutry on the input? Is the DIN connector standard? Otherwise, i would think that shorting everyting to ground through a 1K or 10 k resistor would be a better idea. As for contact area, is that like the "$200 Wire A sounds better than $200 wire B" Myths? Or colorng the edge of a cd with a green marker?
lol, it IS rfi. rfi does effect hifi, eg twisted cables designed to reduce there rfi pick up are generally better than ones not designed to reduce rfi. and it is the standard connector, it is safe to short it (verified by the manufacturer) also its not a myth as i can hear the difference, a friend i lent them to with a better system can also, but its not a difference you will hear on a normal system. we are talking high end hifi. edit: and phono/rca shorties have been available for many many years now and most people notice a difference.
Yes, i know, My electronics mentor designs and builds $10 k tube amps professioonally. ALso, in MANY different, independant double blind tests there has never ben a case where the listenee could tell the difference between a $12 radioshack cable and a "audiophile" cable. It's purely a placebo effect (which is valid, to an extent. If it makes you think it sounds better, good fo you!). Also, interference is primarily EMI. EMI also includes RFI, but is not limited to it. It includes stuff like the 60 (or 50) hz hum, crosstalk, etc...
please, dont quote me that "omg your idiots for spending more than 50p on a cable that just transmits electricity" its utter dribble. i could show you hundreds of articles, let you talk to hundreds of shops, reviewers people etc. infact i will show you one article.
So what's in a Cable? Let's make a bold statement: "The best Cable is No Cable" Let's make another one: "The Ideal Cable does not change the Signal traveling through it in ANY way." Let's make a third one: "No Cable can improve the sound-quality of a system, they only make it worse in varying degrees." And indeed, the best Cables I came across make things worse only a very little bit. The worst however.... I personally divide "effects" in audio into three "orders". These refer both to magnitude of effects and to the "obscurity" of the underlying principles. First Order effects are those that produce massive and immediate changes to the sound. First Order Effects also mostly tend to have a direct, simple, logical and scientific explanation. To elaborate, for interconnects capacitance is a first order effect. Use Goertz Interconnects (these are essentially unrolled capacitors) for a few meters and most sources will substantially roll off the treble due to the excessive Capacitance of the Cable. Second Order effects make appreciable differences but are harder to pin down with logical explanations, though in most cases they exist and can be found. To elaborate, the sonic difference between stranded cable, litz/hyperlitz cable and solid-core cable falls into this category, as does the dielectrical quality. Both matter quite a lot, but ultimately, if our cable has massive problems with First Order Effects any second order effects (for better or worse) will often be swamped out by these. Third Order effects are way down and also, in many systems the resolution of the System is not high enough to seriously magnify the differences. In my own system I only begin to get a handle on third order effects. I think the Conductor-material argument (silver vs. copper vs. plated copper vs. exotic conductors) falls into this category. Cables have a sound!? How? I have said; the ideal cable does not alter the signal. Sound is a complex acoustic waveform, transformed into electrical signals at the time of recording. It is these signals that we want to keep as intact as possible. We can describe these waveforms in terms of timbral, dynamic and temporal accuracy. All these have electrical equivalents. For my various bits of accuracy a lot of math is around to do it all scientifically. I personally prefer to stick to the "popular science" approach. Accurate Timbres mean the a voice or instrument sound exactly as we would hear them normally. It includes both the harmonic structure (so no harmonic or intermodulation distortion please) and the basic frequency response. Accurate Dynamics mean that the Dynamic Swing of the Signal (music) from the recording should not be reduced. Most Cables usually manage that (as they are passive devices). Accurate Timing includes a few effects. There is some heavy math from Prof. Malcom Hawkesford on the Maxwell effect, which stipulates that different frequencies travel with different speed through a piece of wire. Then there are phase-effects from both the lowpass filter function of the cable and the skin effect. Now all these effects listed above can usually be quantified in one way or the other, though it is rarely done and many of these measurements are still being treated as suspect by "mainstream" audio. If we know what to measure we can easily analyse all first-order effects of the Cable. This simple electric's. We need to determine the complex Impedance of the cable, read all the capacitance's, resistance's and inductance's in the cable. From here on it gets fairly technical. If you just want to know which Cable I think sounds best and how to cheaply make yourself some, just go to Now for a bit of practical stuff.
The L, the C and the R To alter the sound passing through it least, the various parts making up the impedance must have such values, that little or no alteration happens for Audio-frequencies. Interestingly, (for me) Audio-Frequencies means 4Hz - 100kHz in order to guarantee no more than 0.1db deviation at 20Hz or 20kHz. If we look at the general impedance's in line-level interconnects, we find (usually) that the source-impedance is in the region of a few ohms to a few kilo-ohm. The load impedance ranges from about 10kOhm to about 1MOhm. The input capacitance is mostly very moderate too (100pF or less). This provides us with some indication as to the relevance of the various electrical parameters that matter. It seems that as long as the cable dc-resistance is being kept moderate (a few ohms) there will be little influence. The ratio between the cables resistance and the input resistance is very large. Indeed, the contact resistance of the RCA plugs used (terrible connector by the way) is often much larger. A loop resistance of 1Ohm when feeding a 10kOhm Amplifier input will cause an attenuation of 0.001db. The Cable inductance also matters little as long as it is kept moderate. The higher the load impedance is, the less relevant the Cable inductance becomes, the lower the load impedance is, the more relevant the cable inductance will become. Interconnect cables of about 1m (3') lengths rarely have an inductance of more than 1uH. At 20kHz a 1uH inductor will have an impedance of about 0.13 Ohm, causing an additional -0.0001db attenuation. Even with a 1nF input Capacitance in parallel with the 10kOhm Input Resistance (IEC Load) the attenuation by the Inductance is not significantly larger. The Cable Capacitance is however crucial for interconnects. I hinted at that when I explained my "first order effects". The Capacitance to cause a -0.1db Roll-off at 20kHz with a 100 Ohm Source Impedance is about 15nF. If our source Impedance is however 1kOhm, a 1.5nF Capacitance will cause this roll-off. I have seen Output impedance's of around 1kOhm in many pieces of mass produced Hi-Fi equipment. As the UK HiFi-Choice Magazine regularly prints Cable-Reviews that include technical sections with measurements, I can estimate the sort of maximal capacitance a cable may have. A capacitance of a few nF is easily accumulated on longer runs of various shielded cables, not to speak of the "unrolled capacitor" type Cables. I would conclude that in line-level interconnection the DC-Resistance and Inductance of the cable are of purely academic interest. Constructions with significant resistance or inductance will likely not manipulate the sound of the signal passing through it in any significant way. A capacitance as low as possible is however desirable. It seems also desirable to have the dielectric (read insulator) in the Cable to be of as good a Quality as possible. Given my (and many other peoples) experiences with Capacitors, Teflon seems the best solid dielectric, while Air is even better. Polyethylene is also quite acceptable as dielectric while lesser plastics and specifically PVC are out. Many commercial interconnect cables use PVC insulation. EMI - all I heard a gentle HUUUUMMMMMMMMMMMMMM Another one of my "first order effects" is of course the rejection of interference. This applies mostly to RFI but also lower frequency EMI can become a problem. The best rejection of external EMI and a good rejection of RFI seems to be achieved with woven constructions a'la Kimber and XLO. Closely twisted Pairs are also good at rejecting EMI (about -47db for the best) but the degree of RF rejection is not as good and capacitance is high. Most current commercial "specialist" cables use this topology. The worst for rejecting EMI and RFI is a "linear pair". Here simply two widely spaced wires are used. At the same time, I nevertheless had good success with this configuration. Another way to reduce RFI (but not much EMI) is to shield the Cable. Shielded Cables do of course have their own problems in first and second Order effects (though not insoluble). A variation on the shielded Pair is a cable where the shield also acts the "cold" conductor. These cables are known as co-axial cables and are the mainstay for Audio. The rejection of EMI in a coaxial cable is quite good. The cable that came packaged with your CD-Player is likely a coaxial cable. To strand, or not to strand - that is the question here (from Cabelitis, a very avantguard play - spoken by the Hero - the Son of an audio-cablemaker) As we already mentioned second order effects, lets have a look at some other relevant ones. In my experience all stranded Cables where each single conductor is made from several strands of copper that are not insulated from each other imparts an unpleasant harshness and brightness to the sound. There are a few theories why this is so, if you want to read one of the more nutcake flavored ones, it comes from Ben Duncan. He proposes that copper-oxide forms between the strands that encourages non-linear conduction (little "mV" Diodes). I shall keep out of this (there are pages full of letters on this in Wireless World), but as said I prefer solid conductors over stranded ones. Litz-Style cables where each conductor is insulated from the others are usually much better or we can use single strands of solid core wire. There is an argument that rectangular thin but wide conductors improve at the frequency extremes. Short of using Foil Tapes, one can use a few thin and round conductors (say 42 Gauge Magnet wire) run parallel, similar to the style of Cables from Nordost. One more second order effect is the interaction of the signal current (as small as it is) with the shield. This will induce eddy currents in the shield that again will degrade the sound. Plenty of spacing helps but again, it reduces the effectiveness of the shielding. Gold plated zirconium Cable in Carbon gels anyone? Third order effects as said are mostly shrouded in mystery and I have not found much of handle yet. There are people that dislike silver-plated copper intensely. I have not found that myself, however. So there you just follow your ear or your guru. There is the issue of conductor shape or diameter. All sorts of other neat little theories, including my own one. I for example say, that immersing the raw conductor in specific oil which is produced from a very rare and highly poisonous snake found in the Brazilian rain forest (and long on the list of endangered species) will provide more "texture" to the music as well as more "bite" to violins. The immersion process needs to be undertaken by certified vestal virgins who are sacrificed to the Audio-God's after completing their task. Unfortunately this is a very expensive process due to large numbers of native red Indian's who are bitten by the snakes when trying to collect them to get the oil as well as the large number of snakes needed to provide a small measure full of this precious oil. Also vestal virgins are getting kind'a rare (have I used them up too?). So do not expect an industrial application anytime soon. But I'm sure it works. Just believe me and buy my cable. It's a tad bit expensive, but you see, all the payoff's of the widows, orphans, virgins parents and so on....
now that article is purely on interconnects between equipment and the best sort, as its an intro to diy cables. i can also site you a couple of articles of reviewers doing blind (actual literal blind people) into hifi listening to different speaker cable and all of them rating one above the other and the others in a similar order. although not in price order it almost was (price range of £2k to £200)
Congratulations.... Your an idiot. [Im sure people spend £xxxx on cables for the placebo effect, just like OMGZ dont buy a Geforce 7800, its just as fast as a Geforce 3 MX440, but its more expensive so it feels faster.... :| ] Cables are a major part in sound, they have to be able to transmit the signal flawlessly, shielded, pure cables are far better than some crappy half oxidised steel/copper cable you can pick up cheaply.. The difference between a £5 cable and a £25 cable is drastic, the diff between a £25 and a £100 cable is big, the difference between a £100 and a £500 is a bit... Its the search for perfection on a sloping curve where its more and more expensive to reach smaller and smaller gains, but its still an increase in performance, think graphics cards like the point I made above, most cards will play things fine, more expensive ones will play things better (onboard to a £30 graphics card is a big leap) then when your up in the £100's of pounds the raw power increase is not as much for the price your paying...same thing in HiFi... - M@
yeah, tbh his statement is totally void of scientific fact and that fact that millions of people would be wrong. true as matt says its an exponential curve of improvement starts off big and then tails off. also most cheap cables use pvc insulation and poor conductors/alloys etc that degrade sound. anyone who owns a hifi (im not talking some intergrated £200 jobby here) will tell you otherwise
Only joking in the above post, cables do make a difference, and as mat says finding a sweet spot with price v performance is tricky. I did however go from bell wire to some £5/meter speaker cable and got asked by people who didnt know i had changed if I had done something to my stereo. Kinda proof that they do make a difference.
It doesn't take much to make a good audio cable. Audio is relatively low frequency. At best, the difference between a premium cable and a reasonably good quality cable will be small. High resolution video is a totally different story... That said, you could use fiber optic cable and optical S/PDIF. After all, it doesn't even use electrical signals, which is the ultimate solution for preventing EMI. If it's good enough for a link sending many gigabytes of data every second, it's good enough for you.
the effect is quite easy to see. Take a test signal (constant sign wave at say 10k, 2k and 20k). Then scope it. You can see a falloff on some cable, but the stupid price ones, are really quite stupid! There seams to be virtually nothing.
