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Is your property worth more than a human life?

Discussion in 'Serious' started by Rum&Coke, 3 Aug 2009.

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Is killing an intruder justified if he attempted to non-violently steal your property

  1. Yes, a criminal gives up all right to life once he enters my house

    36 vote(s)
    32.7%
  2. No, life is too precious to waste satisfying a base need to dominate our self-described "property"

    12 vote(s)
    10.9%
  3. Criminals do have rights to life but adrenaline takes over

    9 vote(s)
    8.2%
  4. People have a right to protect their property but the action should be in proportion to the threat/c

    53 vote(s)
    48.2%
  1. KayinBlack

    KayinBlack Currently Rebuilding

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    So, just to up the stakes a bit, who's been stolen from? Who's been in a real fight? Both of these are relevant. A bit of shoving is not a fight. Who's been in the emergency room, needed stitches, got dragged off or carried out? Who has thrown a blow, either in defense or in anger, and connected?

    I'll raise my hand to all the above. I am blessed to not have to deal with this any more, but I have had all the above happen. Let me tell you something-one shot does NOT decide things.

    I'll take the case of the rugby player. Will one shot floor you? I'd assume not, as you do play rugby, after all. So, let us go on with our assumption. Most of the criminals that I know that were busted on B&E were roughly the proverbial brick ****house. Many grew up abused, had the **** beaten out of them on a regular basis. They knew not only how to throw a punch but how to take one too. In fact, I've sparred with a few. They fight almost as dirty as I do.

    OK, so now we have a theoretical situation of two people who can take a blow and give one back. You know what happens now? It's now a dirty, nasty beating-one that will last until someone gets desperate, or someone goes down. And more often than not, if you go down, that criminal will make sure that at the least you won't get up to stop him-maybe won't get up, ever. This is now desperation-it's him or me, and it ain't me. I have fought to that point in a few matches, as well as a few times in real life-this is when the excrement hits the rotating cooling apparatus. Now, you have tired, SCARED, hurting combatants-more animals than human. They're pushed in a corner, and now items come out, the blows are aimed at throats, eyes, crotches, and the only thoughts distill down to kill or be killed. I still have some nasty scars from a few of those-broken noses, a few defense wounds from a broken bottle, broken ribs-these were shots meant to cripple. One did.

    If you want to fight, the other guy is probably better at it. He may or may not hand your ass back to you in three pieces. It's your deal. Even with my training, in a one on one fight I took a nose broken in three places, was stabbed with a broken soap dish and chipped a vertebra in my lower back. And I won. I was lucky enough to have the edge by being sober.

    If I throw a punch, I know there is a decent chance nowadays that if I don't incapacitate, I will be the one lying on the floor. I still rate my odds as good, but can you? Does it even cross your mind? For those who would talk of never throwing a punch but hitting an intruder, it's not as easy as it sounds. It's never as easy as it sounds, and if it ever gets that way, there's a problem.

    -Kayin, who's been there, done that, and who chews far more slowly for the multiple jaw breaks.
     
  2. llamafur

    llamafur WaterCooled fool

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    just get a shot gun and cock it in the other room, that noise is pretty alarming and should make any burglar run.
     
  3. mvagusta

    mvagusta Did a skid that went for two weeks.

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    For some burgulars, yes. For others, it might make them run to the front door, open it, and then hide... waiting for you :eeek:

    lol @ one punch kills :hehe: You sir Yackyb are ninja :rock:

    And what? Videogames are the root cause of break ins? Damn gta :grr:
     
  4. steveo_mcg

    steveo_mcg New Member

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    Careful lads we're about to hit another gun control thread and we all know were that leads :). Elton pretty much all your points have been discussed ad nauseum in some of the other threads, have a scroll down the SD and find some of nexxo's posts on gun control, though i doubt you'll agree with his conclusions.
     
    Last edited: 5 Aug 2009
  5. yakyb

    yakyb i hate the person above me

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    good post kayin i was originally going to cut it down a bit but decided against it because it is all relevant to my reply

    yes i have been stolen from (just this last month actually) it was my parents house and no-one was in at the time and they took my bike which was secured around the back of their house they did not enter the building. which is not really what this thread is discussing.

    although i cant claim to be in anything as nasty as yours appear to have been i have been in a number of fights (im from the Liverpool region, England which can get rough on a night out) two fights involved three people attacking me, not a single clean blow was landed by either myself or my attackers and the fights where both ended when they decided that there was not much point in continuing.
    im not proud to admit it but i have also had a number of fights on the rugby pitch, two or three have been push and shove affairs, however four have been ended in one punch. Of those 4, 3 ended up in the person going to hospital, and these are other rugby players.
    another i was on a night out with some of my more geeky mates and 5 of us where jumped by a group of about 8 chavs, the only action i could take was to get my friends out of there a few where wearing knuckle dusters and one of them a ring of some description luckily imanaged to get everyone out with minimal injury (couple of chipped teeth and a broken nose). i however had a number of cuts that needed stiches the next day i can only say that i was lucky that i did not get knocked to the ground.

    i would just like to add here that i genuinly did not start any of these
    i do not drink and therefore do not suffer from the horrible aggression associated. My few 'street' fights have involved groups attacking me
    2 of my fights on a rugby pitch have involved people spitting on me which i will not tolerate.

    i have also been involved in situations whereby people have hit me broken my nose but i did not react as i felt that it would be better not to.

    On that note if some skinny drug addict came into my house to steal from me i genuinely think there is potential for me to kill them in one punch. some big thug coming into my house that would perhaps be different

    i think that some of the earlier posts of people saying they would attack them whom have never been in that situation before do underestimate the difficulty of the task.

    which i think is what supermonkey was saying in that many young men portray them selves as tough esspecially in the early years following puberty which leads to the alcohol fuelled brawls which are a common occurance in the early hours on our cities streets. also as a sadly more common occurance the group of 5+ 10st chavs walking around thinking their 'posse' is the best/hardest, and try to cause trouble to prove it. which i do beleive is a cultural problem and no matter what way you look at it Rap music does not help things

    as kayin was inferring, If the fight does not end quickly and is a fairly even run thing the bet is that the intruder would be the one first willing to grab the nearest sharp object stab you with it and try to get away where as generally you as the home owner will be trying to detain him which is an incredibly dangerous position to be in.

    my personal opinion is this if you hear someone downstairs, at night get your family into one room and lock it your stuff is insured you will at worst get new for old, which is a good thing i suppose and a slightly higher home insurance premium. If however they appear in your bedroom and are threatening your family either strike hard fast and violently to stop them as quickly as you can, or reason with them, tell them where something expensive is for exchange for your safety which at the end of the day is all that matters.

    kayin i noticed you mentioned that you had training in Krav Maga was there any particular reason for this? why/how did you get involved in so much trouble?. Last year my brother spent 4 months training in Vegas and got to spend some time with Bas Rutten and if you have seen any of his krav Maga videos you will know what i mean by 'not an eye for an eye but 2 eyes for an eye'.
     
    Last edited: 5 Aug 2009
  6. Combinho

    Combinho Ten kinds of awesome

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    All I know is that when burglars came into my house I was scared s***less and did not know what to do, and just ended up standing in my doorway. Obviously, being in my room, there were no weapons that came to hand (seriously, how many people actually keep a gun under the bed, especially in the UK...). The burglar (one of two) opened the door, saw me and ran. I think that this is the most likely outcome of any such event. Pro tip: burglars don't get caught, murderers do. Also, I didn't feel violated at all, just scared when I knew they were there and annoyed I had to waste a day talking to the police.

    The long and the short of this is, such a situation will most likely never arise, and all you macho fellas will probably be s**t scared and not know what to do. I'll wager not what you have been claiming in this thread.
     
  7. jhbellsh

    jhbellsh Hmmm... never mind.

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    I'd be highly impressed if a burglar woke me... quite frankly I'm pretty sure I could sleep through a brass band walking through my flat!

    I'm with the majority of the last lot of posts, I'm a relatively average sized male and I can intimidate with the best of them, but I've been in a few fights in my life and never walked away happy... run, hide and call the police - there really isn't anything else that's sensible.
     
  8. stuartpb

    stuartpb Well-Known Member

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    My house was robbed twice in two weeks once when I was single. I was working permanent nights and the local smackheads figured out that my house was empty at night. The first time they took every piece of footwear I owned and my weeks wages that I had left in the house. I was more gutted that I had to go to my favourite footwear shop in my steel toecapped boots to get some new shoes and boots. I am a label freak when it comes to my footwear, so replacing these cost me alot more than the weeks wages.

    The second time, they took some more clothes and a load of CD's. This is when I flipped my lid and paid some local lads to find out who had robbed me. I managed to track one of them down and gave him an ultimatum, my gear back or a good kicking. I got what they hadn't sold, and I even got some cash out of one of them by making them sign their giro over to me. I still gave him a slap though, which was alot less than if I had I caught them in the act.

    Most scallies round our way who are into the robbing are dirty little smack rats who probably weigh 10 stone wet through. I wouldn't feel guilty at all about giving any of them a good hiding if they robbed my house. I would never just hide and run away if someone entered my house. Once you go down that path, you are automatically made a target and seen as a soft spot.
     
  9. KayinBlack

    KayinBlack Currently Rebuilding

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    I grew up half Native American, half Caucasian in a 99% African-American ghetto that sprang up around the house my grandparents built. I attended a 50-50 split elementary school, a 60-40 white split middle school, and a 60-40 black split high school. In my hometown, everyone it seems is a racist. Blacks hate whites, whites hate blacks, and all of them hated me. I am not a very physically imposing man (6'6", but weigh between 120 and 130 due to illness) though I'm not afraid of anything put in my way. Krav Maga lets me completely even the playing field-he's a hundred pounds heavier than me, but if your first shot is the balls and the second is the throat, how big is he then?

    As to the fights, a good few were from then, and I've been homeless twice. I still get called horrible names, but at 27 I don't pick fights any more. If you actually went and started one with me, though, God help you.
     
  10. Rum&Coke

    Rum&Coke New Member

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    Yaaaaah the thread became crazy scenarios justifying shooting people, "If they had guns this would never happen" and careful legal explanations of what you can and cant do. Best of all, the meaningless, non committal and hilariously vague poll option I didn't include won the thread. Hope this thread was worth your time, it wasnt for me.
     
  11. stuartpb

    stuartpb Well-Known Member

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    Is that a dummy I see flying in the distance??:D:D

    What exactly did you hope to achieve with such a charged question? People have given their opinions and because you don't like what they are saying you are throwing a strop?
     
  12. Elton

    Elton Officially a Whisky Nerd

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    Pretty much, even I'd admit, it would be very unrealistic for me to just waltz down there.
     
  13. stuartpb

    stuartpb Well-Known Member

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    I can put my hand on my heart and say that I wouldn't hide from the situation. I never have done before when I have been caught in tricky spots, and I wouldn't start now. It's more than just simple, silly pride or machismo, I couldn't live with the feeling that I let someone walk all over me. I can honestly say I would be scared and would be worried that it would come on top for me, and I would be lying if I tried to say otherwise.
     
  14. llamafur

    llamafur WaterCooled fool

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    Good point.
     
  15. LeMaltor

    LeMaltor >^_^

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    I think it's worth more than the scum robbing my house yes.
     
  16. Teknokid

    Teknokid Well-Known Member

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    If they were armed, at threatening, then I think it's perfectly justifiable to attack them in some way, but obviously trying not to take their life, just KO them for a while.

    I think the legal system in this country really sucks, if they're threatening in some way, you should be allowed to protect yourself without going to prison.
     
  17. jhanlon303

    jhanlon303 The Keeper of History

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    Colorado has 'Make My Day' laws. Any force is appropriate for anyone INSIDE your home.

    /SARCASM ON

    If the blighter crawls off, just drag his sorry arse back inside.

    Take no prisoners in Colorado. Kill em all, let God sort em out.

    /SARCASM OFF

    Seriously over abused law. Have some sense people! Kill someone over something you bought and can replace?

    Life is precious. Even dirtbag nosepicks might change. You gonna take a life for a toaster? Think about it.

    john

    Oh and by the way. I seriously worry about the shape ANY intruder into my house would leave in.
     
    C-Sniper likes this.
  18. C-Sniper

    C-Sniper Stop Trolling this space Ądmins!

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    I know i would be afraid of someone as old as a grandfather... :p

    *runs*

    <3 you John
     
  19. steveo_mcg

    steveo_mcg New Member

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    Its the menagerie i'd be worried about ;) :D
     
  20. Picarro

    Picarro New Member

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    This is the reason I have an air rifle lying under my bed. It cannot hurt anyone unless I stick it into the eye, but there is still a large psycological factor involved when the burglar looks down the wrong end of a sniper scoped rifle. Even more since the gun laws in Denmark are quite strict. I would never ever have the guts to fire the thing, even though it cannot hurt anyone with the small pieces of scrap it fires. And then ofcourse, there is my 14 club golfset, which can persude anyone to back off when I come howling at them with my 4 iron.

    In Denmark, the princip of force vs. force is to be applied. If the guy runs over and starts hitting you, and you unfortunatly for him, is a master at taekwondo or any other martial arts, it is okay for you to incapacitate him. You may not kneecap or do any permanent harm to him. After that you can do a civil arrest, and then call the police.


    Edit: And to answer the actual question. If some guy broke into my house, I would let him steal all the crap he wanted. I am insured, and nothing is worth getting killed over. On the other hand, if he threatened to kill my family, or do any other kind of bodily harm to them, I will probably not be able to constrain myself, and the police might find the burglar, with a 4 iron protuding from a body cavity, where no 4 iron has ever gone before.
     

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