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Scratch Build – In Progress Logic - V 01 - The cook book!

Discussion in 'Project Logs' started by No X, 30 Apr 2021.

  1. No X

    No X What's a Dremel?

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    Hi

    I promised some drawings and here are the 1st version fast drawings to see if the ideas are feasible. They are not good looking but to the point.

    This picture shows the front with the right side being for the water cooling. On top right the reservoir, below that 2are radiators 60 mm deep with 20 mm deep Fans. The boxes with a cross inside are to small depictions of 2 pumps very square is in real life 5 mm x 5 mm and will in real life be 20 x 20 mm. Ratio 1:4. The pumps are likely a minimum of 60-65mm in diameter

    Behind the reservoir on top is a PSU

    Left side Motherboard CPU and GPU.

    Why 2 pumps to keep speed down and thus noise level.

    * Bonus Info:
    A few years ago a friend of mine that works with liquid cooling of high voltage circuits told me that every 90 degree bend adds 10% to the resistance in a loop. I haven't tested or made the calculation but I might. Do any of you know about this?

    Again 1st drawings so be gentle :D

    upload_2021-5-12_1-5-40.jpeg


    Next picture shows flow directions still from the front. Color green and blue are cool water red is hot.

    upload_2021-5-12_1-11-40.jpeg


    Then comes a picture from the right side. still t see if it it feasible.
    upload_2021-5-12_1-14-50.jpeg

    Next picture shows a muck-up of possible frame and surface. I've rejected this one like a lot of other option. Still it gave me some ideas for new designs.

    upload_2021-5-12_1-16-30.jpeg

    Design change?: The process lead me to test upgrade my design again, to future prof it a bit more if possible. I will redesign the case to hold 2 Power Supply Units (PSU) For this to work I will move the motherboard down on the tray and add extra mounting holes. The old holes stay giving me 2 mounting heights. The new challenge is that the back of the skeleton now needs an option for a replacement plate for the alternative 2nd mounted GPU and thus a motherboard that is mounted lower. Cable and water routes are also changing. This 2nd GPU also makes the case less movable :/ . Checking weight and cost.

    This redesign also gives an option for a 3rd Radiator of 360 + header 400 mm on top where the original GPU is located ( control of fans is a new challenge)

    The drawn borders of the case are actual the edge of the skeleton. You have to imagine a 3 mm carbon fiber shell.
     
    Last edited: 12 May 2021
  2. No X

    No X What's a Dremel?

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    There are a lot of details not yet on the board.

    Tool-less drive trays for a minimum 2 x SSD (anti-vibration mount)

    Touch screen for an Arduino Due and another connected Arduino.

    Sensors from here to hell that are connected to the Arduinos and 1 RGB. Sensors: Flow, Temperature, Water quality, Air pressure, Sound level DB maybe movement for theft ( needs a battery).

    Fans
    3 in the hardware compartment and 4 fans on the radiators all are PWM and controlled by Arduinos

    Design - Adjustable fan mount
    to be able to change air direction.

    Docking bay for a minimum of 2 drives ( a lot of options here)

    NFC reader/writer will be added internally.

    Power and reset are also hidden but easily accessible

    USB and SD card reader on front.

    Phono jack connections and RJ45 (network LAN)
    I will fit on the front. The RJ45 is extended from the motherboard in the back.

    An example of panel mounted connection: upload_2021-5-12_22-37-45.jpeg

    Dust filter tray?

    A hole for cable lock?

    I have rejected adding a wireless mobile phone power pad and other things that in my view might have a limited life span or are not really a need to.

    I am playing with the idea of having a 2nd system in the rig that is turned on 24/7 like a Raspberry Pi 4 Model B 8GB. For surfing etc the small stuff that we do and where powering on a major system isn't a necessity, What do you think?
     
    Last edited: 12 May 2021
  3. No X

    No X What's a Dremel?

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    A less cluttered picture with more information Still front:

    upload_2021-5-12_21-54-50.jpeg

    Dust filter: On the front upper part there will be a mesh working as a dust filter covering the entire 2/3's of the top. On the right side on the back their is a mesh under the PSU where air enters just like on the front.
     
    Last edited: 16 May 2021
  4. No X

    No X What's a Dremel?

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    Design module add-on: As a part of the modular concept, I will make the entire water cooling and control system detachable from the skeleton in 1 piece. I decided to do this some time ago for testing and flexibility. Parts involved: Radiators, Fans, Pumps, Control system (Touch screen + Arduino and sensors), Reservoir, GPU and the Quick disconnect fittings to the CPU. This is part of why I chose to use flexible tubes. This is also the reason why the Control system is divided on 2 Arduino's (1 Arduino in the hardware side for the fans PWM, temperature sensors, Sound level sensor, Moisture sensor and maybe connected to the main system, to be decided.) This is connected to the other Master Arduino by I2C aka IIC bus. The Arduino on the cooling system does the rest.

    The Motherboard tray has cut outs in the top and bottom for the tubes to and from CPU and GPU.

    The idea came to me because of the challenge getting to the CPU bracket from behind the motherboard when the water cooing system is mounted!

    The main challenges are to find:
    - An elegant way to disconnect/connect power, sensors and the 2nd Arduino from the water cooling system before detaching/attaching the module.
    - To find some stable module feet for when the module is removed and standing around on the table.
    - A secure way to mount the module with as few bolts as possible.

    I got 3-4 more ideas like this that will hopefully make this more functional.

    NoX out.

    Is KISS still possible now?

    Next should be Adjustable fan mount, Reservoir update, Docking station and Tool-less drive trays.
     
    Last edited: 14 May 2021
  5. dan297

    dan297 Modder

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    Maybe so, but I wouldn't worry too much about it, especially when you have two pumps.

    Let's look at some field data:
    In my wood case I have 9 90deg fittings (the worst for flow) plus 5 90deg bends in the pipes.
    In the be quiet! system are a staggering 26 90deg fittings, no pipe bending.
    Both with 12mm brass pipes, so like 10.5 mm inner pipe dia.
    The first one has an R9 5950X (@Stock) in the loop, the second one an i9 9900K (@5.3 MHz) plus an RTX5000.
    The first one has a single D5 in the Iceball res plus a 420 rad, the second one two D5 in an EK dual pump top combo plus one 420 rad and one 360 rad.
    In both the pumps spin at 3000 rpm, the radiator fans at 500 rpm. Both dead silent.
    Not sure about the actual flow, no sensors for this installed, as this is a secondary parameter.
    I am monitoring the primary parameter, which is temperature.
    Both loop temps level out around 12-15 Kelvin above ambient (under full load)
    The 5950X never exceeds 65deg Celsius under full load, the well overclocked 9900K around 85 deg C, with idle temps (normal surfing, office work) around 40deg C for both.
    The GPU never exceeds 45deg C, no matter what I do or how hard it is pushed.

    In summary: very low spinning pumps, a ton of extrem tight 90 deg bends (fittings) in the loop, hardware with demanding TDP, reasonable radiator surface -> reasonable temps.

    And most importantly: the temps do not improve at higher pump speeds. They do at higher fan speeds.
    But I am obsessed with noise. And 4-5 deg C less hardware temps vs. audible fans is a no go for me.

    In conclusion: do not bother with flow rate or how many bends you have in the loop. It has a neglectable impact on your temps.
     
    Last edited: 14 May 2021
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  6. No X

    No X What's a Dremel?

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    Hi dan297

    Thanks for your input.

    A R9 5950X I am jealous!*I can't convince myself to bye more then a R9 5900X doing what I do, and that CPU is hard to come by ATM.

    The 2 pumps will share the Reservoir harvesting the benefit of both radiators. I will have to get a custom Reservoir made.

    Update May 19, 2021 - A FYI You tube - Do Pumps Create Pressure or Flow? Explains part of the process but not the question of components in a system loop.

    I thought about the challenge of getting some data that can be used when putting together and then optimizing a loop.


    My approach will be to take a tube with a 10 mm inner diameter(ID) and 13 mm Outer diameter(OD) and a length of the 7 meter. Then I will pull the entire tube horizontal up to a height of 7 meter minus app 10 cm to test the ability of the pumps to find its Max Pressure Head. The Pump is placed on the ground next to the ending of the tube and attached.

    The pumps (2) I have looked at have a port with a G1/4 thread, PWM, 8V-13V, a Max Current Draw of 14-20W, Max Flow Rate of maximum 350l/h and 1100 l/h . Most importantly a Max Pressure Head of 4.1m, I presume at full load.

    First I will look at:
    - the pumps ability to deliver the Max Pressure Head height under different loads (Pumps speeds). Effectively watch the height of the water column.
    - Next I will add the Inline flow sensors and repeat the test.Why to see the influence the Inline flow sensors has on the setup.

    Then I will create a loop (on the ground :D) with the Inline flow sensors and only adding 1 other component (at a given time) to see how it affects the in loop resistance and performance. I will make a list when done.

    I might have to add time as a factor when testing.


    Why the Max pressure head? Its like looking at an Air Fan and looking at the wind speed vs the fans ability to push air through a radiator. Wind speed and ability to push air are not the same. For those of you understanding German a You Tube Channel named IgorLAB has some really good videos on the subject.

    Fans in the system: Air speed and amount of air could be an advantage in the Hardware chamber, but Fans with the ability to push air through the radiator are at a premium on the radiators! Check the IgorsLAB link above.

    My experience with inline loop components, be it a GPU Waterblock, Radiator or an inline filter they can all affect the maximum speed that a water pump can push water trough a system.The same goes for the performance of CPU Waterblock where its far from true that an expensive block delivers the best performance.

    The chaos in the water (now often created by fins), inside a water block determines the performance at the same level as the water block material or the thickness of the plate against the CPU, a cheaper and thinner plate (faster heat transfer through the material) can actually be an advantage. The thinner plate might also warp and become a disadvantage. So test and reading reviews are for me essential.

    Why fins? 1 part is the fins ability to create chaos in the liquid the other part is the extra surface created that comes in contact with the liquid to transfer energy (heat) to the water. Water by itself is bad a Heat conductivity but efficient at transport that is why we need pumps.

    A very high water flow in the CPU water-block can actually be a disadvantage, since fast flow can impede the heat transfer from the fins to the water. The size and internal design in the water block is here a deciding factor.

    Example of fins:

    [​IMG]

    I will likely in 7-8 months have some data. If any of you have seen a similar test or data please message me with a link.

    Why do I do this when Dan297 is right, the important part is the temperature.! Because I want to know, no I need to know, if it can be done better. There is a given chance that it can't but would we not all like to know? And the only way to know is to test.


    The sound level is important and keeping it at a low level is part of the concept and directly tied to the efficiency of the system.

    I'll be back with some part choices for a tool less tray and maybe some drawings.

    NoX
     
    Last edited: 30 May 2021
  7. No X

    No X What's a Dremel?

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    Tool less tray for 2½" SSD's mounted on the Hardware side (left) on an axel /shaft going from top to bottom, close to the side on the front corner. The drives are standing on the side and are pushed into a combined SATA and Power aka SATA 7 + 15 Pin 22 Pin Male to 22 Pin Female Right Angle Convertors. The drives are kept in place by rubber likely from a bicycle hose. The advantage of rubber of this sort vs silicone is its stability and longevity, it doesn't crumble.

    The trays are made of Carbon fiber and coated with a thin layer of fiber glass and Epoxy (it's non conductive ).

    Advantage:
    - the connectors can be exchanged for a SAS or U.2 connector if needed.
    - The drives are a good way to balance the weight of the water cooling system in the other side.

    2 Pictures showing alternatives.

    Why on an Axel/shaft so it can be turned for easier access to the inside of the case and also to give access to the back of the tray for screws in the back of permanently mounted SSD's.

    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
    Last edited: 19 May 2021
  8. dan297

    dan297 Modder

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    I like your "academic" approach to these subjects, where most people (myself included) are more hands on :thumb:
    And I like even more that you share your thoughts and the results here, so we can all learn from that.

    Igor's YT channel is great. His homepage is also a very good and reliable source of information. It is the German successor of Tom's Hardware.

    Check out one of his latest vids.
    It is about the Aquacomputer flow next. This could be an option for your flow testing
     
  9. No X

    No X What's a Dremel?

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    Yea I saw that yesterday, with the water flow/temperature/quality sensor more like a water conductivity sensor the last part I think, but I liked it!

    Constructive criticism is part of learning and evolving and I need to become better at this, so keep it coming!

    For more then 1½ decade I been visually stimulated by the builds all of you have created, So its time to give something back :D
     
    Last edited: 21 May 2021
  10. No X

    No X What's a Dremel?

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    Adjustable fan mount: First thought is a spherical mount in layers to improve movement, next option a flexible and rotatable tube on the back of the fan, last but not least fins inside the case steering air.

    Why adjustable because I'm a little concerned that the lower part of the hardware chamber might not get enough air (the part below the GPU). So why not just add a fan in the bottom? Where would the fun be in that. It's actually not the only reason I also want to be able to steer air into areas on the motherboard where it might be needed like the RAM, NVME SSD areas etc.

    The inspiration for a spherical mount is this Flange Bearing and a similar built could be with a round fan like the 2nd picture:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    * May 17, 2021 - The idea above the spherical mount is now discarded, because of space limitations. The lacking space between the fans limits the movement making it essential a waste of time. I really liked this idea even though it is on the heavier side. I might use it in another project. I will look at it again I really like it. This idea was meant for the Fans in the front.

    Next design option the rotatable tube on the back of the fan I imagine something like these next pictures:

    [​IMG]
    Turning into this:
    [​IMG]
    * May 17, 2021 - Still trying to make this work lets see if it has a future.

    The 3rd option with fins inside the case just think plane wings!

    * May 17, 2021
    - Might be the simplest, lightest and most versatile option.

    Do I have any idea of how to make this or what the best solution is? That would be a resounding No!
    * May 17, 2021 - Maybe

    ** May 21, 2021 - I Am leaning towards a combined solution Where there is ½ of the shown above rotatable tube behind the Fan and in the case are some Fins directing part of the air to the areas where it's needed. Still looking for alternatives.


    I will elaborate on the design and components when I have had time to work with the options.
     
    Last edited: 30 May 2021
  11. No X

    No X What's a Dremel?

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    Need to and nice to have!

    Found these posted by craig - toyoracer. Thanks mate!

    They will come in handy.

    From Boscoe's thread -
    Cut out size guide CAD pics within. I/O, fans, PSU etc!
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: 17 May 2021
  12. enbydee

    enbydee Minimodder

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    No X, kim and dan297 like this.
  13. No X

    No X What's a Dremel?

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    Appreciated m8

    Thx
     
  14. No X

    No X What's a Dremel?

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    HI

    Future (started in 2020) SSD's are replacing the M.2 and U2/U3 with EDSFF E1 and E3 connections first in data centers then the rest. The change to more PCI lanes on the new motherboards and CPU's is giving us larger and faster storage options with a higher power usage.

    Links www.anandtech.com and www.youtube.com @ servethehome

    I am at present working on two different hard drive docking options its the reason I checked up on this. I will be back soon.
     
    Last edited: 30 Jun 2021
  15. No X

    No X What's a Dremel?

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    I am looking into 3D printing for a reservoir and other smaller parts!

    My Question is do any of you have experience printing a RESERVOIR with clear resin? or any similar objects!

    And what is your experience with the Best (In your Opinion) Water-Resistant & Moisture Resistant 3D Printing Filament /Resin.

    Best source on water proving prints that I have been able to find at this point is Link WWW.3dprinterly.com

    My current choice for a 3D resin printer is ANYCUBIC PHOTON MONO because of its price and print area : 227mm (L) * 222mm (W) * 383mm (H)

    I am not locked in yet so your opinion is appreciated!

    Why 3D printing because it seems cheaper and more versatile then the alternatives.
     
    Last edited: 26 Jul 2021
  16. dan297

    dan297 Modder

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    Hi,

    I have a Formlabs Form 2. 145x145x175mm, same principle.

    I find the build volume of the Anycubic excessive. An uncured print that size (especially the height) needs a zillion and one support structure points in order to avoid warping, bending, etc....
    Means, you are wasting at least 50% (if not more) of the resin you need for the part in support structure.
    And you have an enormous amount of work to do to remove the structure and sand down the attachment points.
    Besides you need a giant IPA wash tank and giant UV curing chamber. (adding extra cost to your equation)

    Just for reference I attach you a so called "green" part, means fresh from the print, no wash, no cure.
    That one is 57x69x48mm. Have a guess how much support you need on a part 4 times the size...

    And don't let them fool you. Printing directly on the build platform is a dream. The adhesive forces are not to be underestimated, so removing a part build like this usually ends up with ruining the green part.
    Those resins are soft to the touch before curing. And printing a 360mm high reservoir hanging upside down hanging just on one side will lead to a curved part, again by the adhesive forces, when the layer is seperated after the print

    Resin printers are great, they have phantastic resolutions, nowadays a great choice of different resins for different purposes, etc...
    But they have also their limits (especially to get thin walled parts straight and true to CAD dimensions) and the post-printing process is a royal PITA (what they don't tell you in their shiny web sites, where you see prints of useless fancy grit structures, but rarely a meaningful technical part)

    If you look at 3D printing large objects, I would recommend a filament printer. The amount of work to get a smooth surface finish on big parts is equal (if not less).
    When you primarily want to do small objects, get a resin printer and have the occasional large object printed externally at a printing service company.

    20210522_211708.jpg
     
    Last edited: 27 Jul 2021
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  17. No X

    No X What's a Dremel?

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    Hi Thanks for your feedback @dan297 it's appreciated!

    I should Specify, the reservoir is only around 80x80x80 mm I expected support structures on the outside and I did plan on walls that are minimum 3mm thick (I don't know if that is thin or thick when we talk wall size) I did imagine to make it a bit thicker then needed then sand the walls down to size, is that an option in your opinion?

    The reason why I looked for a large area 3D resin printer is, if I I understand it correctly, that the amount of print in the X-Y plan doesn't matter for the print speed only the Z axis? Giving me the choice of collecting more objects to print in 1 go and be more effective.

    I have also looked at a large area Filament printer but that is not a need to atm. Would make some things easier though.

    I did plan on making a tunnel in the reservoir for an shaft/axel to be able to pivot the reservoir out of the frame. How tough is the resin in a reservoir with a 3mm wall ? I estimate the total weight of the reservoir around 1.5 kg fully loaded with fittings and liquid the stress points would be designed and created with more material. I know it depends on the type of resin I am asking for a best guess (Is it at all possible) I plan on redesigning and printing the reservoir again within 2 years of the1st installation.
     
    Last edited: 26 Jul 2021
  18. dan297

    dan297 Modder

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    Hmm...very interesting.

    3mm wall thickness @ 80mm height might be to flimsy.
    The stuff I used for the servo housing in the pic above has ABS like properties and the wall thickness is 2.5mm.
    It has a 5mm thick reinforcement lip in the middle and on the top...and I can still squeeze it slightly.

    Going thicker and sanding down is definately an option, but you won't be able to polish resin like plexi.
    And being too thick is not good either. Each layer need to be seperated from the tank bottom after the laser or UV diode build the slice.
    This is usually done by a vertical movement. So shear forces apply. The bigger your build cross section, the more prone the part is for distortion.
    Each printer maker has a different approach on this, so it is difficult to judge how your model would do this separation and how it would affect your prints.

    It took me a few litres of resin to understand mine, playing around with part orientation, support structure modification and also design variation of the actual part until I derived a few design rules that work well.
    Formlabs also has quite good whitepapers and a useful forum that helped.
    But again, a different maker, a different printer model, even a different resin already changes the picture.

    Nesting parts on the build platform has a minimal effect on the print time.
    It is true that twice the cross section, but half the layer height prints faster. So re-orienting a part can improve print time.
    But if I print 2 of those parts above, it takes 16 hours instead of 9 hours.
    And if the print fails (layer separation) I f..k up 2 parts.:eeek:

    The tunnel as a pivot point is no problem if it goes through all the 80mm. This should be strong enough, if you design it well, what I am sure of.
    I assume tubing to the res is then flexible?
    If it is hard tubing and you want the pivot points as intake and outlet I would work with some glued in brass parts and not seal directly on the resin.
    1,5kg? 80mm edge length is half a litre. Where is the other kilo coming from? Is it a pump/res combo?

    How do you plan to close the res?
    Resin printers are not good at printing hollow parts.
    Since you build upside down, you need to avoid pooling of the resin.
    You have about 2-3 cm of resin in the tank. But printing happens at the bottom of the tank.
    Imagine you print a hollow cube. Then your last layers close it and trap 2-3 cm of resin in the cube.
    If you print a bowl like part (like the main body of a res) it always have to be oriented with the opening facing down.
    Hollow parts need to have two holes, oriented on top and bottom, so the resin can flow out.
    Otherwise the weight of the trapped resin will bulge, or even tear your walls during separation. The uncured resin during the print is still weak.
    And finally of course you cannot remove internal support structures from closed parts...

    As for the waterprove resin itself. It will get saturated eventually with absorbed water and it might have some impact on the properties.
    When you find one which is specified to withstand water it is probably ok. You want to give it a test beforehand anyway.
    Do that early in your build/design process. With what you've set out to do with this entire build you will be able to get a few months exposure :lol:
    Not sure though about the resistance of the resin to the coolant additives. I would do the test with the coolant you plan to use, not water.
     
    Last edited: 26 Jul 2021
  19. No X

    No X What's a Dremel?

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    I do calculate with a bit extra to be on the safe side. the 500 ml (500 g) for reservoir and liquid.
    and then 4x 45degree fitting for yes soft tube 16/10 mm OD/ID another 200 gram.
    The shaft/axel depending on material and size I putt down 200 g more including screws.
    Then a fitting with a diode maybe RGB likely just white another 50g.
    Then a pressure valve (fill port) 40 g Link. Mounted on top and still on top when the 90 degree pivot of the reservoir is done.
    A Temperature sensor 25 g link.
    A Infrared Liquid Level Sensor. 50 g (almost redundant since I got Coolant Flow sensors)
    Reservoir fitting (inside the reservoir) 200 g Link
    Silicone pads at the reservoirs resting points 50 G
    Around 1.3 kg If I have to split the reservoir into a frame and a front and back CNC in acrylic with sealant rubber rings and screws the 1.5 kg is within reason.

    This is a Worst Case Scenario (wcs) looking at the weight of the reservoir and parts, but then again with my crazy it could happen :D.

    I have left out, an option for a built in water filter, I am still working on a satisfying design solution. So still a work in progress and things come and go.

    Yes part of the challenge is that I want to print the reservoir in 1 go without any openings and then drill the access for the fittings etc. So the inside has to be perfect. The outside can be sanded to fit. I might have to water prove the part by filling it with a thin layer of epoxy and also treat the outside with a thin layer UV epoxy (or not). The epoxy inside should solve the problem with the coolant, needs to be tested!

    DAMN good catch I didn't think of that The solution must be to print small holes in the bottom where the fitting are planned then widen them with the drill to meet my specs. I could create some small holes in the top of the print design where the H2O fill port or the Infrared Liquid Level Sensor will be to avoid negative pressure.


    Thanks I didn't see that one coming :D Have you tested that solution with a hollow part, experience!

    One of my favorite quotes : Good judgment comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgment'
     
    Last edited: 26 Jul 2021
  20. dan297

    dan297 Modder

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    That is a good one :thumb:

    I did a quick check and it seems to be feasible.
    Not sure if this is what you have in mind, but I quickly modeled a hollow cube.

    Unbenannt02.jpg


    Then I ran it through the printing software, playing around with different orientations.
    Key is to orient it in a way that no internal support structures are required and no suction cups occur.
    Sorry the menues are in German, but the green thumbs up for printability are international :thumb:

    Unbenannt01.jpg
     
    Last edited: 27 Jul 2021
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