FYI, Mexico, the US and Canada are considered North America. Guatamala to Panama are Central America. Columbia south is South America Wow, no one has used any Ferengi proverbs or Rules of Acquasition around me! GEEK! For the most part I can agree but when the former President of Mexico goes on record with the above quote, you have to take notice. This isn't an isolated incident either. Look over at limitstogrowth.org and you'll see quite a few links to articles and interviews about this. Take it all as it is.
Yea, I shouldn't say anything though as I've got lots of geek t-shirts in my dresser.. My favorite is the one that has <geek> on the front and </geek> on the back
I got it over at ThinkGeek.com... I have a few shirts from them. Other ones I have say: "There's no place like 127.0.0.1" "Geek." They have a new one that I NEED.. It says DAD in binary
Mexico and of course the U.S. would be better off if the Mexican gov't were first of all, actually trying to create an economy and overall good living environment for their citizens. I live close to a neighborhood with lots of Mexicans, most speak some English, but alot of them don't. Also, some actually have chickens and crap running around their yards...trash everywhere... This is a middle class neighborhood, not a shanty town where you live like a bunch of hobo wannabe farmers. And no, it's not my responsibility to learn Spanish, since my forefathers were all English speaking people and are the ones who founded this country. Nothing in the U.S. Constitution provides for the mandatory learning of every hapless migrant's language WHO BREAKS THE LAW and comes here because their countries have nothing to offer. Also, alot of the jobs these people take are not just sweeping the floor, or garbage detail...they are mid-paying skilled machining jobs, rest. managers of U.S. owned companies. It's not that "white people won;t work these jobs anyway"... It's we won't work them for two centavos, a 12 pack, and an old beat up truck. Also, most of these people near me are drug dealers...trust me I know one when I see it. I'm sick of it... People are always saying the U.S. should "butt out" of other country's business. That's a two way street.
Welcome to the forums, Synesthesia, but: It would be a long, long story trying to explain why it s not nearly as simple as that. Too long. Let's get one thing straight. Your English speaking forefathers did not found this country. your forefathers took the country from the Native Americans, in the process not fitting in with them, or learning their language, or adapting to their culture, but rather massacring them and taking over. That was then, and this is now, so I'm not holding this illustrous past against every American living in the USA now, but if you are going to talk claims and entitlements you should be aware of your country's history and be aware that you very much live in a glass house... Then blame the US companies who rather employ illegal immigrants rather than local American citizens.
Ahh, Nexxo, how I love to come across these posts. By the time all is done, you'll have schooled half of my country in the history lessons they slept through. Let's not forget that we also felt the need to then go retrieve an entire other population who DID leave us alone, enslave them, and demand they build our country for us whilst we attended balls and political affairs. In fact, throughout history, we tend to do that a lot...both our nations. We're all REALLY good at being mad at the people who bother us, then go take it out on the people who didn't. Or we can blame an economy that doesn't really afford them the entire luxury to do otherwise. Often we talk in this country about how "American companies should stay with American workers on American soil." But guess what? It's getting to be a mighty flat world out there with some mighty close neighbors, and I don't just mean in the US. Our companies across the world are now having to compete with more and more nations that are becoming industrialized enough to provide the same business and production services, but don't have the infrastructure (and often not the desire) to provide the citizens' benefits we do. The fact is that for a rural farmer in china who was only making a half a bowl of rice worth in income a day, getting 2 bowls of rice is a HUGE improvement. And as for Synesthesia's point about the 12 pack and pickup truck...if one ignores the derogatory undertones in that remark, you're right. We won't work for that, and the mexican immigrant, illegal or not, will. Frankly it's a whole lot better to him than what he got to do back home. Those people are driven. They duck and run from a system that never wanted them to another system that doesn't want them now, chancing their entire lives for the taste of a dream we practically piss on daily. And you know what? It's capitalism, guys...a huge part of what makes this country so great in the first place. The man who is most driven to succeed will, and the people who have a lower bar of success will meet it more frequently. We take for granted that we're SUPPOSED to reach 60 with a big fat pension, an IRA or 401(k), a $200k+ house, and a BMW in the drive. These people are raising the bar for our own citizens...if you want to have all that, you have to go do something above and beyond what someone else is willing to do for less. It's basic business, it's something I do all day long. If my price in my office is $125 an hour, but someone can get an equally skilled tax preparer or financial advisor for $75 an hour, they're going to. It's my job to do one of two things: Drop my price to remain competitive, or offer something better to justify my increase. And on one other note: it's hard to learn english when you can't enroll in a class because you'd be shipped back to your home country so quick your head would spin. If you really think it's so easy for them to make that decision, go drop yourself in Norway for a couple months with nothing but the shirt on your back, working and living cloak and dagger in a strange land with a strange language and foreign government. And after a few years, I think you'll feel pretty damn entitled to their benefits over there too. Oh, and the spanish conquistadors DID speak spanish. And they were the first of our dear 'founders'. So maybe that just invalidates that entire argument. It's a shame when we're so spoiled by our own greed and status that we are unwilling to help out the few (relatively) who come to our shores asking nothing more than the chance to better themselves. Even worse when we then talk about how US companies cost OUR jobs (and our pensions, cadillacs, etc) by moving one or two plants here and there that bring up the entire living wage of a country like China, Mexico, and others. Seriously, we must have collective amnesia that the people in those countries are STARVING while we fight for a 5% pay increase. Amazingly, we still buy these horrible companies' stocks and wonder why they aren't paying the dividends we want them to (which come from profits), and sell them, downgrade their bonds, etc, when they don't perform as competitive on the world as we want. THAT is a two way street.
According to the , there are 11 million illegals in the US as of September 2004 while 6 million are Mexican I think I've tried to stress this before, but I don't think the consensus is that they are here, it's the fact that they are here illegally. My opinion is that they should come on over if they want, but do it the legal way. When illegals obtain employment, they do not pay income taxes, but can (and often do) get essentially the same benefits of the people who are trying to play by the rules. Plus, even if they are here illegally, any children that are born in the US are automatically US citizens.
Da Dego, you rock again. That was so much better said than my feeble attempts at 1.00am in the morning... Sheer poetry. And good point; I forgot all about the slavery angle for a second. Seems that the US has been built on making underpriviliged "immigrants" do the dirty work. Of course the UK has an illustrious past in slavery as well, but when compared to 50% of my forefathers, the Dutch, both the US and UK seemed like bleeding heart amateurs... (the other 50% of my forefathers were the slaves, by the way). This seems like a digression but it isn't. Think about it: why are most Western countries so well off compared to the other ones? It's because we colonised and enslaved. We invented the big guns first to allow us to do so. We're not unique, of course; there was Djengis Khan, there was the Roman Empire... we are just the latest in a long line. History tells us that a country capable of overpowering other countries will generally do so and thrive at the expense of those other countries, be it through colonialism and/or slave labour (a systematically organised, sustained and sanctioned pillaging and looting of the victim country, really). Not much has changed. Economics are still geared around exploitation and conflict investment. However third world countries are, as Da Dego points out, driven, and they are starting to out-compete us. The main reason engineering in the West has got in real trouble, for instance, is that if you want a part produced you just send the CAD/CAM file to a company in India overnight, and by the time you get back into the office it is ready for delivery. To a more exacting manufacturing standard, and at half the price. Better still, give them a week or two and they design a machine for you that can mass-produce that part, to a more exacting manufacturing standard, and at half the price. Can't argue with that. The once exploited colonies have observed and learned well, and are now beating us at our own game. Why not? It worked for us. And they don't owe us anything. We, on the other hand... And, as Da Dego says: we make it all happen. When we invest in stocks and shares, we don't want a piffling 10% return; oh, no. We want big money. We want a 50% margin at least. We want cheap GAP jeans and Nike trainers. We want cheap iPods. How do you think companies can afford to produce things so cheap? Do you think they could if we gave that guy on the assembly plant in China a dental plan? Three weeks paid holiday? Healthy working standards? Do you think your trendy clothes would be this cheap if they were not made by child labour? All these tired, exploited labourers dream of a standard of living we take for granted and then complain about. They want it badly, and they'll pursue it by any means, whether over there, or by coming to us (We were eager enough to haul them over --in chains-- when we needed them). They feel we owe them. And you know what? They may be right.
I understand your point and can agree, but this is completely different. You're talking about the "exportation of labor" into 3rd world countries and this is all about the influx of illegal immigrants into the US.
Understood, but if you recall in my first post, my argument is that we are currently compensating for the illegals by making the legal path that much harder to walk. By doing so, I feel we ask for this. As our illegals increase, we lower our allowed immigration quotas from those countries to compensate, so that we can take in the same number of people overall. To me, maybe we should instead see the need for them coming in, and raise our quotas to make sure that the number of immigrants that WILL come can come in almost all through legal channels...facilitate their entry into our system, so that they can be a bona-fide part of the American dream too. If you recall, you disagree with this policy wholly based on the fact that the government of Mexico has a big mouth. Personally, I think it would be great to let 6 million people stop having to look over their shoulders. So what if their 'leaders' (I scoff at that term in this regard) talk about "taking over America"? I know that sounds dumb, but think of it. Are these Mexican immigrants PROUD to be from Mexico? Are they here to expand Mexican territory? No! They hated it there, and so they're running here! Leaders of a fleeing population who is sick of their lying and corruption will say anything to look like this is part of some great master plan...look at Kim Jong-Il. Mexico's government is attempting to spin the fact that it's so incompetent and corrupt that its own citizenry doesn't want to be a part of it in hopes of keeping control over the citizens that haven't been totally disgusted enough yet to risk it all. Obviously, the immigrants (PARTICULARLY illegals, who risk so much) don't care much for their leaders, or they'd stay in their own country. All they want is to be here and become American, and they'll do it by hook or by crook if we force them to. I challenge that we're talking about the same thing. Because non-American people are taking our jobs...that's the common theme in this thread. If they weren't doing that, we wouldn't be complaining. The exact same argument is used as companies export jobs overseas, and it all comes down to the fact that other countries' people will work for less...making it a very relevant point in the discussion.
How difficult can it really be? There are hundreds of thousands of immigrants coming to this country every year from other nations and they don't seem to have the same problem. I'm not really schooled in this as I am with other topics, but to me it seems that the "problem" is with illegals from Mexico and to a lesser extent Cuba. Yes, there may be a common thread, but there is a huge difference. When jobs are obtained by illegals in the US, no matter if an American wants it or not, the fact is that they illegal does not pay taxes on his/her wages but because of the way the laws are setup, they are entitled to nearly all the same benefits that the American citizen is entitled to.
Could that perhaps be simply because they're the only country that we border that is experiencing such governmental problems? Other people need to get into a port somehow before they can get on our soil...there's no border to sneak across in New York. It's a long raft-ride from zimbabwe or the Ukraine. So, I guess my point is that I concede your point, but that I disagree entirely with your reasoning...it's a matter of logistics, s'all.
True, I guess it would be tough to walk from the Ukrane to NY. However we have to watch out for those sneaky Canadians.. As far as being the only country with those problems, maybe since we are the only country (as far as I know) without a militarized border, that is a contributing facor? In addition, from what I understand, it's not that difficult to come here legally. The Mexican government isn't helping any in this situation either by printing pamphlets on how to cross the border illegally.
Same thing. Companies hire illegal (exploitable) immigrants for the same reasons as they hire (exploitable) foreign labour. Keeps costs down, keeps prices down, keeps profits high. Consumers buy into the whole deal because they pay less-- and then complain because they can't find any work and foreigners are taking all their jobs. Whether that happens abroad or locally is just logistics. Doesn't mean I don't agree with your point --if people want to immigrate they should plug in and contribute to the system they benefit from, but I also agree with Da Dego that this is made quite difficult on them, and that Western economies, to an extent, appear more motivated to exploit them on illegal terms rather than integrate them on legal ones.
On one hand I have a lot to say on this topic, and on the other I can't be bothered to type it all out. Let me start simply by saying if you are an immigrant in the USA, and you're here legally, I'm perfectly ok with it. Make an effort to learn English (well...American at least ) and people might even welcome you. If you're here illegally, then piss off and get out. I have no sympathy in my heart for anyone here who didn't bother to go through the paperwork and doesn't try to learn the language. You mooch off our healthcare system. You allow corporations to take advantage of you and pay you less than minimum wage, which as a legal immigrant you would be entitled to file lawsuits for. You make my local Taco Bell sound like a bad Cheech and Chong movie. You further cause problems by raising your children to speak Spanish as a primary language instead of English because you can't put them in public schools because INS would deport your asses, deepening the problem of adapting to OUR society and becoming a useful member of it. You don't pay taxes. ----- If I sound harsh, it probably is because I am and while some may not agree with my viewpoint, I stand up for it. I live in Colorado, and even up here, some places sound like Mexico City and that pisses me off because I live in AMERICA. I wouldn't move to Russia without making EVERY effort to learn Russian. I used to work as a waiter and more than once I had familes come in (hispanics) who couldn't even speak enough English to order from the menu without just pointing. It disgusts me. I almost wish the INS would just start going house to house and demanding to have people present their papers or kick thier asses out of this country, unfortunately that wouldn't be very respectful of our Constitution - something I value more than my elected Government does it would seem. But that's for a different rant.
Like Bill Hicks once said: But seriously. I really love cultural diversity. I love that just down the road I can eat meals from several different cultures and continents. I love popping into the local Armenian or Yugoslavian shop and getting some good baklava. I love that little Lebanese eatery/take-away in London where they serve falaffels and tea with huge sprigs of fresh mint in it. I love the coffee with cardamom they sell at their local supermarket, and smelling their spices, and hearing their local music and and hearing people nattering in their native tongue. I love seeing people walking down the streets of Birmingham in turbans, or (if weather permits) traditional African garb, or smoking a waterpipe in their local cafes. Cultural diversity is richness and variety and sense of wonder. It's life. On the other hand it really drives me nuts when we struggle to treat patients in our local hospitals because they cannot speak the language, or if they stubbornly follow their own habits even when they are wildy incompatible with local law, custom or the way things run (although I suspect that is not cultural, but merely being anti-social and no different from the anti-social behaviour that local people can exhibit so well). So, it's a bit of balance and compromise. If you live here, do so legally, contribute your bit and accept that things may run differently here. However that does not mean that people have to assimilate (Borg style), they just have to integrate. I sort of want people to fit in, but also keep their own culture and language, because that makes life richer. And keep in mind, that there are plenty of "ex-pats", people from the UK or Holland for instance, who retire to Spain or Portugal but absolutely point-blank refuse to accept the local lifestyle, eat the local food or learn to speak the language, instead loudly complaining about the weather (too hot), the food (too strange) the people (too foreign) and the fact that nobody speaks any English or Dutch. Those people disgust me.
Americans LOVE to do this very thing, down to...you guessed it, MEXICO! Why? Cheaper lifestyle, their money goes farther. You can live like a king in southern Mexico for what could barely scrape a middle-class life in most parts of the US. Great for a retirement...and do you think THEY care to learn anything, at their age, having worked all their lives in the US? No...worse off, they don't even contribute to the workforce in Mexico...and since their moneys aren't earned, they're often untaxed (unlike what they would be here) because the government there is not really set up for "retirement income." You'd be lucky just to see retirement... Anyhow, this still doesn't dispute my point. I don't like the fact that so many come over illegally, but I still say that the VAST majority do it solely because it's almost impossible to do it the right way. Quotas lower every year, the cost to start the process from the mexican side raises...and the poor who just want to come and have a fresh start are the ones who get squeezed for it. My solution is to raise the quotas again, stop this balancing act of "if we only want 5 million in this year, and 3 million came in illegally last year, then we can only legally admit 2 million." We use the quota figure as a plug for the equation of how many come in vs. how many don't follow the system...never thinking that "If we want 5 million in, let's admit 5 million, so people don't have to sneak illegally." Will there always be a few border jumpers? Of course. But if we make the system work instead of working to make it broken, then the good and honest hardworkers will get their chance at a new life, education, and a workforce that needs them. If we make it so you CAN get in legally, we also remove the excuses for those who don't choose to, and it becomes a lot more cut and dry. Border jumping will be almost exclusively for those who couldn't ever get in legally (drug smugglers, etc), who could then be prosecuted to the fullest extent of our law, or just deported...and we wouldn't have to feel nearly as bad about that. Because all the Mexican people in Colorado probably don't want them over here, either.
i live 10 minutes from the border i live in chula vista, california. also i am mexican and a us citizen because i was born here. my dad back in the day crossed illegaly, why? to get a better life for himself. If you know anything about the mexican government you will know it is a very corrupt government from the leaders all the way down to the cops. the only reason people cross is for a better life. if you notice some of your electronics say made in mexico, Why? beacause japanese companies run "maquilladoras" and pay minimum wage to them. also many americans go every ****ing weekend and use mexico as A big gigantic party country they go down every weekend to get drunk and fill up the streets with crime. Also as da dego said many americans retire to mexico and Never pay taxes. a common thred now is american moving down there and living over there W/O paying taxes and cross ithe borde everyday to work here, why beceause the cost of living is too high here. while some americans complain bout illegal immigrants not paying taxes or helpinig the GOV, americans do exactly the same thing only they are there legally. BTW also if anyone cares my dad is a legal US citizen now
