WOW. Finally, someone with some first-hand experience on the subject. I'm glad to hear your father has gotten his chance to become a US citizen. Frankly, I'm willing to bet he cherishes it far more than most of us who were "native" (and I use that term very loosely). Might I ask, for a matter of record, why your father crossed illegally initially instead of taking the immigration path? And what were his experiences?
I totally agree with you on this. im a born and bread Englishman, ive been paying my tax's and National insurance for the last 9 years, i have not been on any form of benifits as i have been gainfully employed since ive left school. im not loaded but im not poor but i feel i have the right to the NHS as i have been paying for it. in my area the population of the ethnic minority has grown experdentially and the strain on the NHS has shown its tolls. earlier this year i needed some major dental work doing, (i ripped out my front tooth stripping wires yes i know it was stupid) i though what the hay, i'll sign up to a NHS dentist (as i havnt been to the dentist for ages) and get the work done, i was advised that i might have to pay some money towards the treatment but that didnt bother me. i phone 25-30 dentists in he whole of hampshire, and 5 in dorset and all of them could not take me on the NHS as their books was full. (i enquired to the main NHS dental association regarding this and they unoficially said it was due the the growth of the population claiming benifits in reacent times, mostly from the ethnic minority) some of them couldnt take me on a private scheme either. i found a private dentist local and went for a quote, just to repair my tooth £948!!!!!!!!! i pay £110 per month for National Insurance, this is (so i am told) to pay for the "FREE" health service this country provides,that i can use anytime i require for almost any treatment (including a sex change!!!!). so why cant i get a NHS dentist??? IMO its because of the Illegal imigrants abusing the generous nature of our government, forcing Joe Public to pay extra for services that they already pay for.
My retort to that would be to refer you to post #84 by Uncle Psychosis in the recent "The Right to Leave" thread in this forum. There are many complex reasons for the many complex problems this country has. A witch hunt on illegal immigrants is not going to solve any. It is a simplistic solution, attractive only to those who engage in simplistic reasoning. Meanwhile, on a more personal note, Monkey200SX, here's some advice: 1. Free your heart from hatred. 2. Free your mind from worries. 3. Live with more awareness. 4. Give more. 5. Expect less.
Ah, how I love that post. A useful, factual summary that says oh so much about public opinion and the spin monster that we call the media. In fact, it's that very same spin in my dear country's media that says "Mexicans are stealing our jobs!!!"
That's quite obvious rubbish. Whilst dentists like their private patient cake, the majority of their patients are NHS bread & butter. And the only difference within the NHS group is that some pay NHS rates, others are exempt for various reasons. And maybe the ones filling the waiting room saw in the press that a national shortage of dentists had made it harder to register with the one of your choice, and found one before the pain started. Blame a poor education system, the university grant system, poor initial pay and bureaucracy gone mad for the lack of professionals in many fields, not some poor bloody immigrant. I'd remind you, many of the remaining NHS staff are ethnically minor.
i wasnt mainly having a go at the illegal imigrants/ethnic minority, but also our lovly government and heath service. yes like most other big, self supporting countries there is a element of illegal imigrants putting a strain in one way or another on the ecconomy, with also the traditionally brittish bum who cant be bothered to work. i was picking up on a point Dad made regarding that illegal imigrants do not have a NI number thus (in our system of beuracrasy (SP)) cant pay for the NHS, the funding for this has to come from somewhere, in turn people on benifits can also receive treatment on the NHS and not pay or pay a hevily reduced sum for this treatment as they are on benifits. all countries grow at a steady rate, but with the ease of intercontenental transport today the its easier to travel between countries, so we are finding that from developing countries more and more people are traveling to a "better life" this puts strain the the economy of the country that they are traveling to as the population grows a little bit faster. Nexxo as usural you have offered and elightened view on this matter that Ghandi would be proud of. since that thread that I posted, i have been reading up on these matters, and i have found out alot of interesting information, but im not in a position to discuss this as i dont have all the facts yet!! im not starting or including to a witch hunt and im sorry if you feel that way. this made me laugh................. Can you keep personal attacks to PM's please, as i beleive in the rules of this forum that is what is requested. as you are branding me a raceist and saying that i hate everyone. this is far from the truth, if you read my post carefully and fully understood the words written and how it was written you would understand this, i beleive you are quick to judge. 1, i will admit i do have haterid, but its mainly for our government and how they are handling this and other matters. 2. i would love too, but where 25%ish of my wages go on tax to pay for the NHS, Roads, Public Transport, Education, Public Services (police, Ambulance's, Firepersons) and i see no improvement in ANY of these areas i start to worry, just a little improvment in one area would be nice but its not going to happen, 3, Im aware of whats going on in the world around me and it scares me, i understand that people are coming here for a safer life etc, but also the bad people are comming here to, one of the extremists (they guy with the hook cant remember his name) he was here for 10 years and consumed over £250,000 in benifits (i know this is a extreme case) and the british government knew of this guys past BEFORE he came here and still let him in and gave hime that money. 4 Why should i give more, i pay 25% tax when i get paid, and i pay experdential amounts of tax when i spend it on, driving, smoking, drinking. all this money should be going back into the economy, to make all our lives better. 5, Expect less, expect less of what?? my government?? why. i pay for these services so why cant i use them. if you called 999 because your house is burning down, and the person on the other end of the phone asked do you work and earn over £13000 a year? do you claim benifits? well because you ern over £13000 a year and your not on benifits its going to cost you £3000 for us to put the fire out. you would be outraged, you would say. i pay may taxe's so why cant i get the fire service for free. its the same thing I did phone that many NHS dentists and i wrote a letter to the NHS dental governing body to ask for a reason. please dont slate someone on what happened if you wasnt there. i admit i sort of missed the boat of the shortage but i was phoning around whilst this was going on, some dentists has NHS spaces available but they were reserved for people on benifits, which im not. there is an alarming amount of people in the UK that doesnt have a dentist or a GP. and that they will only go and find one if they are in pain, that is how life is. the Government can accomodate other things, like turning old army/nave/air force bases in to holding stations for people seeking asylum. so why can they accomodate everyone to a health service. i agree alot of docotrs, dentists, etc are not traditionally Brittish. and thats how its going to be. the mian problem i have is exactly what Dad said, i have no problem with asylum seakers, imigrants its just the illegal ones. if they are truely fleaing a life of torture/poverty etc why cant they come in to the country leagally? illegal means against the law, other things that are against the law, murder, rape, speeding, shoplifting, ABH,GBH, stealing, defacing the Queens Head, swaring at a copper, Drink Driving and the list goes on
But you were not mentioning the goverment's failings or the "traditionally British bum". You were specifically focussing on illegal immigrants and holding them specifically accountable for the fact that you cannot find a dentist or feel done short by in some other way. I'm sorry if you think that was a personal attack. Let me explain. This is the second thread now in which you blame illegal immigrants specifically for something that you cannot have but feel entitled to. It could be just me, but it just sounds a bit, well, bitter. Somehow I felt that advice, however trite it may sound, was sort of appropriate in a general sense. I do not accuse you of being a racist (not more than any of us, anyway), but typically when people are being prejudiced they do not feel that they are. You pay taxes, but so do I and most people on these forums. You pay 25%? I pay 40%. I'm not thrilled with how it is spent by the goverment either but I do strongly feel that it should be spent to support those of us who are weak, ill, or less fortunate than the rest of us, rather than to fund another war in Iraq, another nuclear sub or another Jaguar for some Minister. Our tax money is certainly not spent wisely. And extreme cases of abuse of resources, do occur as you say. But I do not see the connection between inefficient or outright stupid government spending and the odd extremist with no personal honour using resources of a system he wishes to attack on the one hand, with illegal immigrants just trying to survive on the other. Well, I guess that needing a dentist is not seen as quite as big an emergency as your house burning down. That scenario is a poor comparison. But next time, visit your dental hospital. The wait is a bit tedious but they will not turn away someone whose teeth were knocked out. OK, let's talk about Advice no. 3: living with awareness. We pay a lot of taxes; unfortunately a lot of it is spent inefficiently. But where you and I live, in this country with clean tap water and a decent sewage system, with electricity and gas, health care that much more often then not will cure you and save your life, a stable democracy (flawed, but a democracy nonetheless), a working economy, we never have to starve to death. We never have to die from a simple illness that could have been cured with five quid's worth of anitbiotics. If you have children, chances are good that you will see them grow up big and strong, and see them educated. You don't have to worry about being dragged out of your house at night and summarily executed in sthe street. You don't have to worry about stepping on a stray landmine, or being killed or raped while you just went to get some food for your family. You can get educated and get a decent job, with decent hours, annual leave, sick pay and decent working conditions. If you are the victim of crime you can reasonably expect the police to try and help and not to be corrupt; you never have to cower fearfully in their presence. Make no mistake, this country, with all its failings and shortcomings, for many people out there in the world, is paradise. Be aware: this is another day for you and me in paradise. Because, as Da Dego said: it is very hard, and they are very, very desperate. And if you are frightened for your very life you just try to get out, and get in, in any way possible. Law means nothing to people who have been brutalised, tortured, starved, shot at, seen their loved ones, their family, their whole community wiped out. Law? Law doesn't exist. "Law" is a distant dream, a wishful fairytale of how things ought to be. In their world, there is either survical or there is suffering and death. As I said, awareness.
Another note here: Do any of you, aside from Rd52's father, have any clue how LONG the legal process takes? And where do you think you live for that period of time? Immigration into America can take up to or even more than a year (about 9 months is a good ballpark for the average) of paperwork back and forth. And that is before you're allowed in the country. If you're already starving, desperate, threatened, etc...are you going to wait that long, hoping that your maybe-existent postal service will deliver a package from your maybe-existent US embassy?
Actually, most developed countries have a fertility rate that is below replacement level. This means that the populations of these countries will be shrinking in the future, not growing. Immigration is one way in which we can meet the shortfall of workers that will occur once the current "baby boom" generation retires. Otherwise there will not be enough tax revenue to support our ageing populations, and not enough productive workers to meet demand. Of course this means that these immigrants would have to be legal citizens, but given the political climate in the UK, I don't think such an influx would go down very well. How short sighted we are.
Understood, but does that excuse it? All I (and others) ask is that people do things legally. It's illegal for me to practice law without a license, illegal for me to practice medicine without a medical degree and accreditation. My problem is not that these folks are here, it's that these "illegals" are here benefiting from and counting on a system that they do not contribute to in any way. If they become legal citizens, then that's great and I'll welcome them all with open arms, it's when they don't become citizens that I have a problem with.
(excuse me, but I haven't read the entire thread, just replying to Dad's last post) Not contriubting? Mexican immigrants (both legal and illegal) provide for quite a decent amount of physical labor in the US. Those who are not citizens may not be paying taxes but they're also missing out on some things legal citizens enjoy. Protection under the law for example, employers can undercut and underpay illegal immigrants. If they complain to the government, they're turning themselves in. In the area that I live in, a lot of people rely highly on immigrant labor. It's mostly services like lawn care type stuff. People around here are spoiled and expect high-paying jobs so no one wants to do that. So if illegal aliens are willing to work hard for the low wages they're paid, I say no harm done. but what do I know?
ok this is the extension of my first post regularly the process takes 5 years yes thats a five, but if some one in your family like dad, and husband/wife want to immigrate you it takes like a year and a half but your family member has to be a US citizen to meake u a legal alien. my mom was immigrated here by her dad and the process took like a year and a half. now to my dad since he had no family that was a us citizen and he hadnt met my mom yet and he didnt want to marry anyone just to become a legal resident he was lucky enough to be here in the US when the government allowed illegal immigrants to become legal resident (im not sure what the law or act was called). ok to answer part of da DEGO'S question my dad worked at a motorshop as a machinist wat he told is that the owner was white and my dad was his best employee the owner paid him same as the other machinist, when he became a US citizen he worked at nasco (which is a company that makes ships for the navy) now my dad is a CNC programmer (i assume most of you know what a cnc programmer does) and makes about 20 dollars an hour. currently he is studing sumthing to do with robots and machining. BTW- theres a movie called a day without a mexican which show a hypothetical california in panic without mexicans. its funny and makes you think how much people depend on mexicans
This is a very long thread to read, so if I repeat some stuff already stated please forgive me. I also do have kinda first hand expierence. My best friend's dad owns a landscaping company which he has 2 illegal immigrants working for him, while my dad hired a illegal immigrant (poland) that no one else could really and this immigrant is now legal btw. I also live in Arizona Here is what I have to say: The first thing I want to point out is about the taxes; Everyone is complaining they arent paying taxes. However, in the end if you want to stop them from coming over here YOUR taxes are going to pay for it. As you sit here and complain about the taxes they aren't going to pay, your government is going to spend A LOT MORE. IIRC, the first bid on a fence that would be 2000miles long was about $1million. That is roughly $2 Billions dollars. Of course this has dropped. But thats a guideline on how much they will spend Next part on stopping them, what about the military forces that its going to take to keep an eye on the border? What about the repairs? Honestly, controlling the borders is going to be QUITE EXPENSIVE. So now even if you kick them all out, the taxes that you wanted them to pay wont be paid because they will be in another country. Either way I see, this country will see very little money from the illegal immigrants. The only thing we can do is piss money away on stupid fences, that people will figure how to get across anyways. Next Issue: The cost of living WILL go up if you get rid of all them. Think about, many business that offer service that we use everyday are performed by illegal immigrants by paying under minimum wage. If they now how to pay the minimum wage, it will increase their cost and companies are greedy on profit so they will increase their selling price. Thus, in the end you pay more for everyday services. Okay so lets recap, Our government is going to waste a bunch of money to get of illegal immigrants that everyone complains about, just so they can have their costs of living increase. Just using simple math, Arizona has approximately 6million people here. At 5% unemployment, brings out to only 300,000 more or less. And we all know Arizona has more than 300,000 illegal immigrants working. So whos going to fulfil all the jobs. There certainly isnt enough people. Many business will shut down because lack of people. Hrmm, more harm to our economy by kicking out the immigrants. One final thought: "this land is my land, this land is your land..." All of you sang this song in Kindergarten or whenever.
Welcome to the forums, PolishNorbi. And what a great entry you made too. I do understand your point, I really do. But "all that you ask" is actually quite a big, big thing. Waiting for up to five years in deprivation, hardship and possibly life-threatening conditions for an application that may, in the end, just be rejected? As Da Dego said, these people are driven. A lot of them will go to great lengths, and work extremely hard, and demand relatively little just for a crack at bettering their lives. I don't know about you, but I would think these are the sort of people you want in your workforce. These are the people you want for citizens. These are the people you want to give a break. So here's my solution: allow these people to prove themselves. If an illegal immigrant can demonstrate that (s)he has lived and worked in your country for, say two years without making an excessive drain on resources, has just been trying to make a living and better their lives, give them legal status. They've proved that they make a valuable contribution to your economy and community.
They do that much of the time, it's an amnesty program that the government has which will make illegals full citizens if they've been here a certain period of time and have been a productive member of society (ie, not in jail). I don't know any of the specifics, but there is one. You know, it's not just that the immigrant isn't paying taxes, it's that their employer is not paying taxes on the illegal immigrant. The illegal is also afforded the same heathcare as I am, but they can't pay for it which raises costs for the rest of us. Over and above all this, the main problem is the sheer number of people who cross illegaly. In 1999, on the California border alone, there were 1.6 million illegal immigrants arrested. I'd point to a link, but I can't remember where I read that, it was somewhere on cnn, foxnews or cbs news web site. Let's talk about the process of coming here legally. How can it be that difficult? Okay, maybe becoming a citizen is a process, but what about just getting a green card which will allow them to LEGALLY work and live here? How many people from the UK, France, Russia, the Mid-East, Japan and everywhere else come here to study or to work? It seems to me that they didn't have a problem getting here legally. When they are here, they can then turn around and go through the process of citizenship while being in the country legally. This country was founded by immigrents and has a very liberal immigration policy. "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free. The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me. I lift my lamp beside the golden door." That poem written by Emma Lazarus is written on a plaque at the statue of liberty and most Americans welcome immigration, as long as they are legal. All we ask is that they get a green card or some other form of legal documentation and contribute to the system that they supposidly risked their lives to become part of.
Yeah, but come on now, that's a tiny bit naive. I suspect it is much easier for, say, a well-educated Western-European or Asian, or a successful Russian businessman to get a green card, than some unskilled, poorly educated, hardly literate labourer from a Third World country who faces a real struggle to get his hands on a ridiculously expensive luxury like a passport, and apply for a green card at a US embassy that may or may not exist. Here in the UK people coming from the Caribbean to spend a holiday with relatives are turned back at customs and put back on the plane all the time. Note: ordinary families who have valid passports, a valid return ticket, good money in their pockets and a valid address of relatives where they intend to spend a few weeks on Christmas holiday. Just because it is feared that they might want to decide to stay illegally...
Maybe it's a bit naive, but most illegals don't even seem to care to make an effort at it. It's easier not to go through the motions, so they take the path of least resistance and just take their chances and try to cross illegaly. What do you suggest? It seems to me that people are suggesting to essentially open up the border.
did you even read my previous post? from what my mom and dad told me the process takes from 1 to 5 years if some tone you are directly related to (eq. parents,husband,wife, or kids) they can speed up the immigration process and it takes from 1 year to 1 year and1/2. Also if no one directly related to you is a resident it may take up to 5 years since. also like some one stated before the amnest program thats how my dad became legal and it takes a year to a year and a half. also if they also want to be US citizens they have to pass a test and prove they can speak english.
Hmmm...ok, Dad. Let's talk about the process of coming here legally. The average work visa for a short stay takes approximately 2-4 months from your nearest consulate. My friend from Australia (a very civilized country with comfortable US relations) came over for the summer to work at a camp. It took her about 3 months to get the paperwork to work in the US legally for up to 6 months, or 30 days past the end of her STATED employment. 6 months...That means that one could not come over and start the citizenship process in time to not violate INS rules, which would prohibit them from finishing being a citizen. If they lost their first job, they have 30 days to find a ticket out of this country, even if they've only been here a month. "Green Cards," as you say, can extend your stay indefinitely. But, in order to apply for one, you must be sponsored by an employer or family member and not be violating any current INS laws. So, you need to have already had a short-stay visa of some sort, or not be living in the US. Green card determinations can commonly take up to 1 year. And this does not grant you citizenship. You can read more about the I-551 (green card) here. Perhaps that will help you visualize the giant beaurocratic nightmare that you would like some destitute person from a fairly impoverished country with corrupt leadership to do, since it's just not that difficult. Most of our citizens (thankfully) do not even complete their own yearly tax forms. Yet you expect someone with little to no english-speaking ability and a third-rate education to navigate a multi-step process of many forms with similar complexity, all in a language they don't speak. Riiiiight... And while we're wishing, I'd like a pony.
Yes, I read the post and thought I responded. Maybe not directly, but it was there. So, what should we do? Open the border? I agree that maybe current policy may be restrictive, but it is the current system. If I speed, I get a ticket, if I shoplift, I may go to jail, if I don't pay taxes, I'm in deep with the IRS. If people want to change the system, that's cool with me, BUT do it within the system, not by side-steping the established rules. As far as learning Engilsh, our country speaks English, all our legal documents, medical documents, educational system and everything else is in English. I would hope that people would at least make a valient attempt at learning the language if they want to live here. I wouldn't move to France without having at least an understanding of French.
