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News Microsoft knew about Xbox 360 disc scratching?

Discussion in 'Article Discussion' started by CardJoe, 16 Dec 2008.

  1. liratheal

    liratheal Sharing is Caring

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    I disagree with that comparison based on the fact that (bar the spillage), it was entirely at the hands of McDonalds, and them serving it far too hot (Who the hell can actually drink coffee a t 180 deg. F?). In this instance, it's users being stupid with the stability/positioning of their consoles.
     
  2. Drexial

    Drexial Member

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    Is it just me, I don't know when they came out in the UK compared to the US. But I know the reports of disk scratching were coming out before the release. There is video of a best buy employee talking about how they needed to replace the demo disk 4 times. as far as I know the scratching issue was more an issue when first released.

    As far as the report of it being 55,000 complaints. I feel its that not everyone is complaining or they are taking into account those that complained about the console and not the disks.

    As another note. It wasn't this much of a problem on any previous disk based console.... so why should MS let it be a problem on this one.


    Its like the Ford Pinto. I mean, it only exploded when hit in a certain way, there were only a few complaints about it, and the only reason it would happen is driver neglect. So why should Ford have been responsible?

    OK so its a bit of a reach for a comparison. But how much bad publicity has this cost them compared to the 25p it would have cost per system to know that its not a problem? Even just the 55,000 complaints. lets say each one of those cost them $100 in revenue, that's already as much as it would have cost them to install that little part.

    Its really hard to look at this and not ask "so it would have cost you 30 cents to make sure my $60 game didn't fail?"

    then think "well, if they cut corners on this, what else did they cut corners on?"

    I think most of us can easily think of at least one more thing they cut corners on.

    But again, not disagreeing that it is more often then not user negligence.
     
  3. Skiddywinks

    Skiddywinks Member

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    Also with liratheal 100% here.
     
  4. kylew

    kylew New Member

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    What I don't understand though, is that the PS1/2 GC and a so on all had spindles that locked the disc down. How expensive could it possibly be to implement that, and what's the reason behind not implementing it? It was pretty much a standard thing on console disc drives, why change it when it doesn't need to be and works perfectly fine?

    I would have thought having the disc clip into the spindle is something that gets done without much thought, it certainly makes the disc a lot more stable and secure, who would complain about that?

    I can't possibly think of any reason why they wouldn't use that method, other than it's just not been thought about. Cheapo £10 portable CD players manage to get it done, and as people are reporting, it's not an issue restricted to xboxes that have seen movement while spinning the disc, even more reason to implement it.

    Same goes for the RROD, surely it would have been far cheaper to just get it right and spend a bit extra on designing and building it, than to extend the warranties of all xboxes and repair a load of them. As far as I can remember, MS reported a huge loss due to failed xboxes, extending of the warranties, and repairs.
     
  5. liratheal

    liratheal Sharing is Caring

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    I don't know enough about the Ford thing to effectively discuss it, so forgive me for not responding to that.

    I don't recall it being an issue on most previous disk based consoles because as far as I can remember, most of them were 'open the lid, snap the disk onto the spindle, close the lid' affairs. I didn't play all disk based systems, so I could be entirely wrong.

    When it comes to the cost, I was under the impression that the console has always been sold at a loss to the company - I believe it's only Nintendo who's ever sold a console at a profit - so 5.5 million (Bear in mind that's pounds, when this was all being decided on, it would have been closer to 10 million in dollars, which might not sound like a lot when compared to Microsoft's billions of dollars in electronics and software, each business arm has to account for its profit/loss, and shaving ten million off the loss account is a very, very attractive prospect in terms of having less to answer for. I'm not saying that it does right by the customer, but then, who does these days?) is a significant amount.

    However, it had clearly been tested, as it has been in the manual since the very begining of the consoles sales run. The drive itself has been changed a number of times in the 360's life (I think there are something like five different drives, or have been five different drives, in the 360's around the world), without any reduction in noise - and I fully believe that a good portion of this has been to try and resolve the disk scratching (changing supplier of DVD drive is going to cost less). Having the rubber strips inserted would have meant an additional step in the assembly line - Since the 360 has used pretty much all external DVD drives (Big players being Samsung, Phillips, Thompson and Hitachi), it would cost them more to have this additional stage in what is, presumably, anotherwise normal production line. I expect there are hidden costs that this 25 pence does not cover.

    Especially when you consider that most of these things are put together by machines - Even with human element - There is massive room for error in terms of where the pads are stuck, how well they are stuck, how the heat inside the console affects the glue on the pads, whether they stay in the right place after 2-3 years of use, given that drives (Being the gaping maw in consoles that they usually are) attract dirt, dust, and abuse.

    Whether they cut a corner or not - They did take the precaution of telling people not to move the console when it was operational - Which many people, apparently, ignored. Which puts the blame entirely at the users door, not Microsofts.

    One or two very simple reasons: Slot loaders can be unreliable, not saying they all are, but they can be. To use the same method as the Ps1 and GC the drive would need to be a top opening drive. It wouldn't have worked with the design of the 360.

    The RROD thing is, again, an entirely different situation - That is entirely Microsofts fault, unless the user crams everything into a corner with no airflow. While that is common, it's not the main cause.
     
  6. 1ad7

    1ad7 New Member

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    Im in the "disc" industry I guess :p I work at blockbuster and we have more 360 games destroyed then any other system, and likely more than all the others combined (ps2, wii) ps3 disc dont really compare due to the different material which is really scatch resistant. Also from what I can tell they scratch disk regardless of you moving the console, obviously more if you do.
     
  7. liratheal

    liratheal Sharing is Caring

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    Another issue you're probably aware of, is that most people take little to no care of rentals. Because it's not theirs, they don't give a rats about it.
     
  8. themax

    themax New Member

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    My Xbox 360 has been my only console to scratch discs the way it does. I am sure Microsoft knew about it. And it doesn't suprise me that they didn't care. It's easy to pass it off on user error. I've heard people try and downplay the RRoD the same way as user error. Ever have your console knocked over by a little cousin? And not just that. The Xbox 360 is damn sensitive period. I shouldn't have to turn the thing off, just to plug in a peripheral (memory card, USB Wifi, controller) for fear of damaging a disc if the console shifts ever so slightly. We've gone from people turning PS2's upside down with the disc spinning (and no damage) to simply moving the console back a foot or two engraving your disc with a tatoo.
     
  9. liratheal

    liratheal Sharing is Caring

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    I can honestly say I've never moved my console, or even wobbled it, when I've plugged in a memory card, a usb device, or even a hard drive.

    Moving the console back a foot or two when it's stood up is going to be some task to acomplish, especially if it's on a decent ground, its rubber feet grip well. And if you pick it up, well, that's that.

    I agree that this is a step backwards from the PS1/PS2 days, but frankly, moving your console when it's on is daft by any standards.
     
  10. TreeDude

    TreeDude New Member

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    I didn't get my 360 till just a few months ago. So I have not had any disc scratching issues (knock on wood). But it seems to me that this is definitely past the point of being user error. Even if it is a user moving the console while it is on that causes the issue to start, the drive should be tougher than that. I have moved many consoles while on or with a disc in the tray and had no issue. I have been extra careful with my 360 though after reading about this stuff.
     
  11. Drexial

    Drexial Member

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    Both the original PS2 and Xbox were both tray load drive that had no problems such as this. Yes a lot of previous systems had top loads, Sega saturn, PSx, PS2 refresh, Gamecube, Dreamcast. These systems are a bit easier to deal with problems like this. But I mean I believe all the Xbox had as many standard computer drives had, was a little spring mounted to a metal disk that the DVD was pressed against when inserted. and that was enough to keep it from hitting the laser assembly, fairly standard equipment. I haven't torn apart a 360 drive to know what the difference could be that this would be a problem. Given that the problem has been between 3 manufactures and 3 models... I don't understand how this have been such an issue. But as I said, it doesn't seem to be as bad as it was for the first round of systems. Those seemed to be scratching regardless of being moved. Now I would say that the cause in most any case would be negligence.
     
  12. samkiller42

    samkiller42 For i AM Cheesecake!!

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    With liratheal on this, my 360 has been perfect to me, no damaged disks or anything, which is a bonus. I've moved it before with a disk in the drive, by mistake, but it was still in a ruck sack that was on my back as i ran home, so, if you look after it, it will be fine.

    Sam
     
  13. lesdmark

    lesdmark New Member

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    I have had a 360 for years now and the only time a disc got scratched was when the console orientation was changed while it was on. As far as the Xbox and PS2 go their drives do not operate at the extremely high speeds that the 360's drive does if you buy a high speed drive for your pc and change the orientation while it is operating at high speed it will scratch the disc.
     
  14. pumpman

    pumpman Active Member

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    I was playing my Xbox 360 in the bath the other night and got some Mr Matey bubbles on it and it scratched my discs , my letter of complaint is in the post as we speak
     
  15. talladega

    talladega I'm Squidward

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    It doesn't matter whether they wrote in the manual not to move the console. They knew about the problem and could have prevented it at hardly any cost but were too irresponsible to do it.


    Just like they could have prevented the RROD which they knew was a problem but again didn't fix it before releasing the console and only now 3 years after being released is it 'supposedly' fixed.

    It's is just M$ being irresponsible and dishonest like always.
     
  16. Otto69

    Otto69 New Member

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    Look, there's a video out there I've seen, on youtube probably, and it shows a parents investigation into this. The optical drive used in the Xbox was almost identical to ones used elsewhere. But the ones elsewhere, which cannot damage a disk, have 4 little pads in the corners that basically contact the disk before the head does, preventing damage. The xbox unit does NOT have those 4 little stick on pads inside. Now consider that the xbox is a mobile unit and that it's advertised it will work on end or on flat, is it really that much of a reach to figure someone might move it from horizontal to vertical while forgetting there was a disk in it?

    Microsoft is at fault here. Definately. The product is defective.
     
  17. Otto69

    Otto69 New Member

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  18. kenco_uk

    kenco_uk I unsuccessfully then tried again

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    That's another thing. Whilst a 52x cd-rom for the pc is a fairly noticeable noise, nothing is noisier than an xbox360 drive reading the disc like billy-o. Why is it so bloody noisy? I can understand it's to keep loading times to a minimum, but crikey.. it really is loud.

    As for the scratching of discs - I'm with liratheal. I certainly wouldn't let anyone near it without reading the manual, considering the cost of it.
     
  19. ethanator

    ethanator Waste not want not

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    hahaha

    loser :D
     
  20. Noob4ever

    Noob4ever always learning

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    Well My two cents worth is basically, If you dont read the manual and follow the directions and your stuff gets screwed up, its your own damn problem........ As for comparing the problem to the Pinto, well the Original Mustangs had that problem as well, It wasnt so much design flaw so much as design being ahead of technological advancements....... IE they were of a sub frame construction In order to make it a sub compact vehicle...... and frame technology wasnt upto the standards...... I mean basic design concepts arent that different than more modern sub frames...... just better metals and techniques going into the construction........ IE they just crumpled too much in the arse and hit the fuel tank...... also not comparing the fact that they were fairly small for their era

    So Basically your comparing American Technological vs Design advancements when we were supposed to be talking about stupid people too lazy to read a manual......... If it saves MS 5.5m pounds then the more power to em, they did after all tell people not to move consoles, thats idiot owners freaking problem....... I've had my 360 for a few years, moved several times etc etc...... No dead discs.... imagine that
     
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