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News Microsoft Surface Pro 2 gets sneaky CPU upgrade

Discussion in 'Article Discussion' started by Gareth Halfacree, 3 Jan 2014.

  1. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Staff Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    I'm sorry, but Google turns up nothing. Could you provide me with a link to the ThinkPad Yoga 2, by any chance?
    Who said I hated Microsoft? I'll have to tell my friends on Xbox Live, they'll enjoy the laugh. I'm merely correcting your fallacy above - that people bought the Surface Pro 2 because they "didn't mind" it not having certain features. That isn't going to be so in all cases, as I've proven that if people were looking to buy a Windows 8(.1) tablet towards the end of 2013 they didn't have a choice as to whether they had those features. No tablet with those features existed - until Microsoft quietly upgraded the CPU in the Surface Pro 2.

    No, they're not. Oh, TSX-NI is, sure. But vPro isn't Haswell-exclusive. Neither is VT-d. Or TET.
    vPro management software has existed for a long time. As has VT-d - my hypervisor of choice, VirtualBox, supports VT-d just fine. TET, too, is fully supported in most modern operating systems.
    Projecting much? I'm in no way annoyed at Microsoft's move here. On the contrary, I think it's good that they've upgraded the Surface Pro 2 to be better suited to enterprise use. I have no horse in this race: I don't own a Surface tablet of any kind, and I have no intention of changing that.
    Really? 'Cos I'm seeing different. Heck, in this very thread there's a chap suggesting trying to get a warranty replacement just to get the new processor.
    It really, really hasn't, you know.
     
    Last edited: 3 Jan 2014
  2. Corky42

    Corky42 Where's walle?

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    So when a customer takes their Surface Pro 2 back because Microsoft's firmware update bricked it and it gets it exchanged for a Surface Pro 2.5 that's OK ? But if you do something that warrants an exchange that's not ? And i didn't claim its false advertising changing spec A for spec B, i merely pointed out Microsoft has been sued for false advertising in the past so they aren't exactly the saints most people make them out as.
    And one was sold as the galaxy S3 3G, and the other sold as the galaxy S3 4G so people knew what they were buying.
    And when new hardware comes out its given a new name so people know what they are buying and are not paying their money for a lucky dip.
    As explained above i didn't claim the false advertising was specific to the change of specs, merely that Microsoft is far from the saints people like to proclaim
     
  3. GoodBytes

    GoodBytes How many wifi's does it have?

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    Never mind.. I got confused with the CPU model of these ThinkPad Yoga . Well if Lenovo doesn't have it , nor does Dell, nor does HP, and all opt to get Atom or Core i series without these features, even in the business line, it means that there is most likely no market for it. I mean you think that at least 1 would get it... well you have Dell... but Dell is wants the Ultra Low voltage model, as it uses a fanless design tablet.

    I believe I didn't convey my point properly. My point was that I don't see that these features were a decision making one when buying the Surface Pro 2. And if it was.. then it was probably down the list... as you would opt for an ultrabook instead, or wait for the Dell Venue Pro 11, or some other product.
     
  4. GoodBytes

    GoodBytes How many wifi's does it have?

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    My apologies, I miss understood your post.. didn't get my breakfast when I answered.
    :/
     
  5. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Staff Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    And the model number, it would seem. So, we're agreed that there was no tablet available prior to the end of 2013 which included all the processor features of the refreshed Surface Pro 2, then?
    An interesting conclusion. Why, then, is Dell about to launch a model with these features - and why has Microsoft updated the design to include them? If there's no market, wouldn't they have been better off leaving the cheaper, less feature-rich processors in place? I know of several enterprises - the sort of sizes where you'd do an order for 600 tablets as a trial run - where vPro support is an absolute necessity, without which no x86 hardware is going anywhere near the staff.
    If that was your point, then no: you didn't convey it properly, or I failed to read it properly. Am I saying that everyone who bought a Surface Pro 2 would have instead opted for Similar Tablet From Another Company Instead if it had the features of the refreshed Surface Pro 2? No. I'm not even saying that everyone who bought the original Surface Pro 2 would benefit from most: TSX-NI is sparsely supported, VT-d is only of interest if you're doing virtualisation, vPro is pretty much pointless outside the enterprise... It's only really the speed boost that would help across the board, plus arguably TET.

    What I was attempting to do was correct your fallacy of claiming, as I interpreted it, that nobody would benefit from the upgrade. You've already proven yourself wrong when you stated that the new chip is locked at 2.6GHz, showing that it does indeed hit 2.9GHz when required. I only wanted you to see that for selected people who bought the Surface Pro 2 - those who use virtualisation, those who need transactional memory support, those who use their device in a corporate or enterprise environment with vPro awareness, and so forth - the revised model has significantly fewer compromises, and had it existed at the original point of purchase would have been the logical choice over the actual Surface Pro 2 as-was.

    Y'get me?
     
  6. GoodBytes

    GoodBytes How many wifi's does it have?

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    Model number of the thinkPad does exists:
    http://shop.lenovo.com/ca/en/laptops/thinkpad/yoga-series/yoga/
    I thought it had a different Core i5 CPU.

    All Ultra Voltage Core i5 have these features, Dell is getting that as the tablet uses a fanless design. So, it will have these features.

    The reason why Microsoft switch is unknown for certain... at least not yet. But what I can assume, as the the 4300U is the same price, and released AFTER the Surface Pro 2 development stage, it could be that Intel is discontinued the 4200U (the other OEMs probably did a mass order already, while Microsoft is keeping it's warehouses empty, to avoid what happened with the Surface gen 1 line of products), or it could be a demand thing.. Intel is not pushing them out fast enough, as other are using it, so Microsoft switch the CPU to the 4300U which no one or few are using... so Intel can deliver to Microsoft.
     
  7. bawjaws

    bawjaws Multimodder

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    Good to see Gareth has chilled out for 2014 ;)
     
  8. GoodBytes

    GoodBytes How many wifi's does it have?

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    I corrected myself, as I reported what I was testing from my Surface Pro 2. I am not doing testing like this as a career, or hobby. I went as I go, after further thinking and testing, I corrected myself. Take the info as is. Feel free to do more in depth testing and perhaps more properly than I did.

    And by 'nobody' and I meant in a generalized way... in life they are always exceptions... so calm down. I am sure you'll find some one that loves monochrome (green and black) CRT monitor, budget class, where it flickers like no tomorrow, and push how its far superior of any monitor released afterwards.
     
  9. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Staff Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    That's the Thinkpad Yoga. You told me to look for the Thinkpad Yoga 2, which doesn't exist. Remember? Post 18 in the thread. "you can buy the pro 1 for really cheap, or get the thinkpad yoga 2" (my emphasis.)
    But the Core i5-4300U isn't an Ultra Low Voltage model, and the Surface Pro 2 isn't fanless.
    I can tell you now that Intel is categorically not discontinuing the 4200U right now. It may do in the future, but it isn't doing now. I told you so upthread, in fact.
    Never give up! NEVER SURRENDER!
    Isn't that what I just said?
    I've actually got a monochrome monitor (amber, rather than green) on my desk right now. Buy the Custom PC after next to find out why!
     
    Last edited: 3 Jan 2014
  10. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    If you deliberately do something that warrants an exchange, it is not.

    Microsoft has an obligation to sell you a working product. If the company borks it by one of their firmware updates (which we can assume is not deliberate, BTW), then they have an obligation to fix it or substitute it with a working model. Microsoft does not have an obligation to fix or replace your product if it gets broken by mistreatment or neglect on your part. That is your responsibility.

    But they are not. They are buying a product with advertised spec. If that spec is uprated somewhere along the way, that is a bonus, but the other costumers were not short-changed --they got exactly what they thought they were buying.

    Products undergo revisions all the time. A lot of those revisions may be improvements and removals of flaws and weaknesses that became apparent only during use over time. Most of these revisions we never even find out about.
     
  11. GoodBytes

    GoodBytes How many wifi's does it have?

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  12. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Staff Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    And Lenovo doesn't make a Thinkpad Yoga 2. Difference is: I never claimed Dell made the Surface Pro 2, did I?
    You're familiar with the aphorism regarding assuming, yes? It makes an ass out of you and a guy called Ming.

    EDIT: Oh, and your claim that all Ultra Low Voltage Core chips include the features of the new Surface Pro 2? Yeah, they actually don't. There's a Core i5-4200Y, which is the ULV variant of the i5-4200U - and, unsurprisingly given its model number, it doesn't include TSX-NI, vPro, VT-d, or TET.
     
    Last edited: 3 Jan 2014
  13. GoodBytes

    GoodBytes How many wifi's does it have?

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    You did.
    I was talking about the Dell choosing Ultra Low Voltage CPU.


    k
     
  14. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Staff Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    And I was talking about Microsoft switching chips too. Funny how conversations work, innit? You stated that Dell added vPro et al to its tablet because it didn't have a choice, owing to the move to ULV chips; I stated that couldn't account for Microsoft doing the same, 'cos Microsoft isn't moving to ULV chips. Y'see? At no point did I say "hurr, durr, Microsoft make Dell's tablets!!!111eleven" Whereas you did claim Lenovo make a Thinkpad Yoga 2, did you not?

    Plus there's the fact that, as I mentioned, there are ULV chips without vPro et al Dell could have chosen - meaning your claim is, at best, mistaken.

    Is that any clearer?
     
  15. Snips

    Snips I can do dat, giz a job

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    Any chance of an official line from Intel on the switch Gareth? We may have assumed it was Microsoft's doing but it could have just been offered on a plate by Intel, if there was some kind of underlying problem with the chip?
     
  16. Corky42

    Corky42 Where's walle?

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    Yea because the world is full of honest, moral people and company's isn't it :rolleyes:
    Like politicians claiming for expenses they ain't entitled to, or company's avoiding taxes, or bankers fixing interest rates.
    Well in fact they don't mention anything concerning a botched firmware update, well unless you count that as "materials or workmanship"
    Well they may have got exactly what they thought they were buying, but that doesn't mean they will be happy to know their 2 month old tablet is slower than ones you can buy now, and doesn't come with TSX, vPro, TXT and VT-d.
    And while you are correct in saying products undergo revisions all the time, most of the time this is as you say to fix problems found over extended use and not to add new features such as what has happen with the Surface Pro 2.5
     
  17. GoodBytes

    GoodBytes How many wifi's does it have?

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    If you buy what you need, then the marginal performance boost should not be a problem.
    And, as the missing features, well you should know about that, before hand.

    New firmware coming up Jan 14, but nothing official, yet.
    Every company makes mistakes. It's never acceptable, they don't do this on purpose... they have no gains from doing this.
     
  18. Bede

    Bede Minimodder

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    That's pathetic. You name two widely publicised acts of criminality, that people have gone to prison for, and then suggest that because that happens it's ok to commit other fraud.

    It's like when chavs claim for whiplash - it seems like a victimless crime to them, but the end result of so many people doing it is that car insurance costs go up to compensate.
     
  19. Corky42

    Corky42 Where's walle?

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    So you have never heard of lead by example then.
    If big company's and public figures can commit large scale fraud for billions is it any wonder people think its OK ?

    Maybe in this perfect world you live in all the politicians, bankers and tax avoidance (perfectly legal BTW) have been locked up. But sadly in the real world that the rest of us live in very few have served a custodial sentence.
     
  20. RichCreedy

    RichCreedy Hey What Who

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    is it possible they wanted the i5-4300u originally, but due to supply issues had to go for the 4200u to get to market? both processors were released q3. and anyway, don't Microsoft state that specification may change from time to time
     

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