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News Microsoft will not apologise for Xbox bans

Discussion in 'Article Discussion' started by CardJoe, 13 Nov 2009.

  1. Krazeh

    Krazeh Minimodder

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    Strange because when I read them they definitely included details of each reports major findings. And asking a relatively small number of people a number of questions and then extrapolating the results to a bigger group is kind of how studies work. As long as the original small group contains enough people to be sufficiently randomised then the results can be taken to apply to a larger group well enough.

    Anyway the point still stands that studies have been conducted by reputable bodies which have concluded that people who download music end up buying more music overall.

    Gee, that's a suprise. A record label, who are desperate for people to go back to how they used to buy music 10-15 years ago, dispute the claims that piracy isn't the cause for the drop in music revenue. Because obviously they're the sort of people who are well known for introspective analysis of their business practices and are always keen to embrace new ideas and technologies.

    And you started so well with the apology. I don't recall admitting anywhere that I have stolen (not that piracy is theft no matter how much you try to wedge it in there). And btw that's not an admission that i've been involved in piracy either.
     
  2. M7ck

    M7ck Ⓜod Ⓜaster

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    okay

    Whatever I say you will disagree with, so thats me done with this.
     
  3. impar

    impar Minimodder

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    Greetings!
    Nope. People that buy more music, also download more.
    People that arent interested in music, dont download.
    http://forums.bit-tech.net/showthread.php?t=177483
     
  4. mjm25

    mjm25 What's a Dremel?

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    can't you just change the network card/chip and away you go again? (different MAC address)
     
  5. PureSilver

    PureSilver E-tailer Tailor

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    I thought it wasn't the MAC - apparently those are manually resettable in XBoxes or something? (I don't own one, this is all third-hand). I thought it was something else; the hacks that so far get around this do so by making multiple personalities of an unbanned 'box that you can only use online at alternative times (i.e., Xbox Live thinks they're both the unbanned Xbox when they aren't, so you can only use them at different times in case it spots this multiple-personality-disorder and permabans you both).

    Indeed. I take issue with your cause-and-effect there - it seems to me more that people who like lots of music buy a proportionally larger amount and download a proportionally larger amount. New genres is all good but there are undeniably several non-copyright-infringing services (Spotify, Pandora, hell, even MySpace will keep you in with the indie scene) that do similar jobs without the piracy thing.

    This I find the most bizarre bit. They wouldn't have bought the item anyway? We'll never know if they would have bought it or not in the first place, but I think we can agree that once they've gone to all the trouble of downloading it, hacking their XBox and playing it, they're much less likely to buy it. Why would they? They're enjoying all the benefits with, er, none of the costs. Doesn't already possessing the thing somewhat hamper the ability to sell you it? Or do people regularly buy more copies of things they already have all they need of? Over half a million XBoxes banned, apparently; you're seriously suggesting all those people were just giving MW2 (one frikkin' game!) a bit of a try before rushing out with their hard-earned? In addition the PC version may not be without controversy but you're going to struggle to find a majority of XBox users who think that game is 'dross' or, indeed, ever realistically expected it to be so.

    Face facts - it's even more obvious in gaming because you have to invest actual money in avoiding paying the money. Whilst there certainly are people who buy what they download because they like it, you don't pay for a modchip unless you're planning to make playing unlicensed copies of games a regular occurrence. That's not something that rings true with 'try before you buy.'
     
    Last edited: 14 Nov 2009
  6. do_it_anyway

    do_it_anyway Minimodder

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    Try before you buy? On a console that has a good 80% (made up figure - pure guesswork) of games available as a playable demo first? You download the demo...for free.... like it, then buy it. You don't need the full game to tell if you are going to like it or not. MW2 did not have a demo, I know, and that is one of the reasons its likely to be a heavily pirated game (don't get me started on the broken multiplayer again).

    And as for people who buy a chipped console by mistake...... As I said before, if you buy a car thats been stolen, the police take it off you. You get nowt back. If you buy one thats been a write off, you lose all value on it, if you buy one thats been welded back together badly, it fails its MOT and you get nothing.
    If you buy 2nd hand you take chances. Maybe people should be wary of an XBox that looks like it has been tampered with. After all, there will be tell tale signs. You wouldn't buy your car off a car thief, why buy your console off a pirate?
     
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  7. NuTech

    NuTech Minimodder

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    That is precisely the problem (or at least one of them). Nobody apart from yourself can ever know for sure if you were one day going to buy that game you pirated (in which case the IP owner was never going to see your money anyway), or if you might have purchased it if there was no possibility of pirating it.

    You could even go further with the arguement that even you yourself do not know what you will or won't buy when the opportunity arises. For example, you refuse to buy Batman:Arkham Asylum for £40 due to it being a single player only experience - you therefore decide to pirate it. But what if a year later you see it for £10 in the bargain bin? Regardless of it now being a great deal, you probably won't buy it because you've already completed it a year ago.

    The possibility of the game ever being sold to you has effectively been stolen. That is where the real theft happens.

    Not to argue semantics, but pirating Xbox 360 games (which is what the original topic is about) doesn't actually require the use of a modchip. That is something which infuriates Microsoft, there being no physical product for them to crack down on. It's all done by changing the DVD drive's firmware.

    But I completely agree with the principle of your point. The investment of time and effort required to 'mod' your Xbox 360 most definitely implies that you're not doing it for honest reasons.
     
  8. NuTech

    NuTech Minimodder

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    I think comparing someone purchasing a modified console by mistake (with clever use of a hair dryer, there are no signs of tampering) is quite different from buying a stolen car.

    There are a variety of ways to check the legitimacy of a car (registration plate, VIN's, log book etc), not to mention the countless amount of publicly available databases which keep track of these things. Even on a well made Ringer (cloned stolen car), there are tell-tale signs something is not right.

    With an Xbox 360, aside from plugging it in and trying it (which isn't always possible when buying second hand), there isn't much you can do to verify what you're buying.

    Legal complications not withstanding, I think Microsoft should publish the serial numbers of all banned consoles online. This would at least give people some way of knowing a consoles history. They'll never actually do this because they want to maximise the fear of buying a banned console to encourage people to get a new one instead.

    Anyway, after a bit of asking around, it looks like big retailers such as GAME will replace any second hand console they sell if it turns out it's banned from Live. Obviously this gives no comfort to private sales. Pretty much on your own there.
     
  9. DXR_13KE

    DXR_13KE BananaModder

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    First of all let me say that i know that piracy is illegal in most countries and that if you like it you should buy it (i live by this philosophy).

    Let me check my game collection...

    My game collection does not agree with you, all of them were games i pirated, completed and then purchased when they got to <20€ and i saved enough cash to buy them.

    If i see a game that is very good and is at a price that i can buy then i will buy it, money is not elastic enough for me to buy games at the prices they ask for.

    That in the event that you have money for it... let me explain:

    Imagine that you are like me and have a value of X€ of income and Y€ bills that have to be paid (like electricity, water, food, etc...) C€ is the value of money that is available for you to spend on "stuff" (games, movies, music, etc...), this value is either totally used, partially used or totally saved so that you can add it to the C value that you will get next month so that you can get more expensive "stuff". The number of "stuff" you can buy is limited by C€, considering that you blow the entire value of C on "stuff" every month and then pirate some more "stuff", what is the probability of the makers of said "stuff" gaining more money if piracy ceased to exist?
     
  10. M7ck

    M7ck Ⓜod Ⓜaster

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    Yet another thief trying to justify it.

    If you cant afford it then tough **** you dont get to play it. I cant afford a Ferrari but im not going to steal one then justify it by saying that when I have the money or its value drops to something I can afford, I will pay for it then.
     
  11. Tulatin

    Tulatin The Froggy Poster

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    Shut the **** up, you ****ing retard.

    Christ. Is it so hard to get off your high horse on the subject of piracy, Bit-Tech? The people who get off on being mighty about it won't shut up, and the people who do it STILL WILL.

    To clarify it - PIRACY IS NOT THEFT ON A PERSONAL SCALE. There is NO loss. There is NO cost.Whether you chose to buy the game after downloading it is irrelevant. It's like saying that sneaking into a movie is loss.

    Can we just make these sort of discussions and threads bannable already? I'm tired of watching holier-than-thou retards whinge.
     
  12. M7ck

    M7ck Ⓜod Ⓜaster

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    Calling me a retard? This thread is about piracy so it is reasonable to talk about it.

    Launching a personal attack on me for not condoning an illegal act should be a bannable offence.

    And piracy IS THEFT
     
  13. AshT

    AshT Custom User Title

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    FACT: no one has modded their console for legit reasons.

    Can't believe you guys are still debating what is or isn't acceptable piracy. There is no acceptable piracy. If you didn't buy it you don't deserve to have it. That's how the world works.
     
  14. AshT

    AshT Custom User Title

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    Ok re-read my fact and I guess their MIGHT be one person out there who modded for backup reasons but I find that hard to believe.
     
  15. DXR_13KE

    DXR_13KE BananaModder

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    I am not trying to justify it, it looks like you suffer from some sort of reading disorder, please read my post again. I said nothing in favour of piracy, what i did say is that with or without piracy the companies that produce media would earn almost the same amount of money as they do now... that or they would start getting more money and other sectors of industry would start to suffer...


    Hmmm... good point, but lets try something out:

    Which of the following scenarios is more similar to software "piracy"?

    A) I want a Ferrari, i go to a shop/house and steal one.

    B) I want a Ferrari, i use a special camera/scanner (that is standard equipment in every computer) that makes an exact digital copy of the Ferrari, or, i use Google to search for a site from where i can get the data, then i use an "universal constructor" (also standard equipment) device to make a physical car out of the data, i use the car for myself and don't sell it.

    C) I want a Ferrari, i use a special camera/scanner (that is standard equipment in every computer) that makes an exact digital copy of the Ferrari, or, i use Google to search for a site from where i can get the data, then i use an "universal constructor" (also standard equipment) device to make a physical car out of the data, i make several copies of the car and sell them at a much lower price than the real one.


    Another question: Considering that you are in an university, there are several disciplines where you need to do projects on several programs in CS4 (an earlier version wont do, neither will a free or alternative version), the university wont lend or give you a licence, you don't have enough money to afford it (you almost can't afford to go to the university in the first place), there are 5 computers with CS4 that students can use, there are about 200 students that need to use these computers on projects that take several days to do and you need to use CS4 urgently to make a work for a discipline.
    What do you do?

    edit:

    Final question: Do you photocopy (Xerox) any documents or books?
     
  16. M7ck

    M7ck Ⓜod Ⓜaster

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    If everybody pirated then the companies would make hee haw.




    All of the above imo is theft and akin to piracy.


    Just because you cant afford something doesnt give you the right to pirate it. But if you cant complete your course due to the fact that you dont have the correct software then maybe you shouldnt be on it. If the software has became a must since you had signed up then it is surely the universitys responsibility to ensure everyone has access.

    Now im sure a lot of people will say its ok as it will ultimately help better the person but I still dont agree. I would love to start my own business but dont have the funds to do so, now if I was to rob a bank/post office or similar to fund my business, would this be considered acceptable? I realise the example i have used might not be the most fitting but ultimately theft is theft.

    edit:
    Yes I do photocopy documents, however all documents that I have copied have been for the author of the document.

    I have NEVER photocopied a book.
     
  17. capnPedro

    capnPedro Hacker. Maker. Engineer.

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    When you buy a game second hand, the developer receives no money. It all goes to the shop selling the game on. So, ethically, is piracy no worse than buying second hand?
     
  18. Kiytan

    Kiytan Shiny

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    you can dress it up all you like, argue petty semantics (is it theft, copywright infringement e.t.c) But at the end of the day, it IS illegal, no if's, buts or maybe's. It IS illegal.

    I see absolutly no reason MS should have to apologise.

    Interestingly, one of my friends got banned from xbox live (for pirating, in the recent wave) and while he was pissed off, he just accepted it as a risk he took when he decided to pirate games.
     
  19. Krazeh

    Krazeh Minimodder

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    Oh the irony. Considering you already started with the personal attacks earlier in the thread then you're hardly in a position to get on your high horse about it.

    No it's not. You can keep repeating that it is to try and convince yourself that you're right but it's not gonna change the fact that piracy is not theft, which is why pirates get prosecuted for copyright infringement and not theft.

    Well i'm glad that you've done the research and have checked out everyone who has ever modded their console so you can bring us that undeniable fact. Oh wait, you haven't have you? Just because you can't grasp the concept of someone wanting to mod their console solely to be able to use backups of their own games doesn't mean that it doesn't happen or that it's a isolated case.

    Well, of course, you're entitled to your own opinion but only one of the examples provided by DXR_13KE would end up permanently depriving Ferrari of their property and could therefore be considered to be theft.
     
  20. AshT

    AshT Custom User Title

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    Krazeh, shame you just pulled out what you needed for an argument, had you read the post or not ignored the post I made straight after then maybe you would have a leg.
     
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