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News Microsoft's Surface hits trouble

Discussion in 'Article Discussion' started by Gareth Halfacree, 16 Nov 2012.

  1. SlowMotionSuicide

    SlowMotionSuicide Come Hell or High Water

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    Let's do that. Thank you for getting some exact numbers, I was too lazy to dig any of them up.


    which equals 87,5% usable space versus claimed storage capacity.
    which equals 87,5% usable space versus claimed storage capacity.
    which equals 50% usable space versus claimed storage capacity.

    Sorry you just completely lost me there. I only know that Joe Average won't be too happy getting only 50% out of the storage capacity he thought buying. Are you saying that since 32GB surface costs the same as 16GB iPad but comes with 2GB more usable space it's all cool?

    Not sure about that either. In EU you can file a complaint to your national consumer protection authority about dubious/false advertising, if they don't pick it up by themselves. I'm not sure whether US even have one of these authorities - seems to me the more tradional way of handling things there is to sue the living bejezuz out of everything and let the court sort it out.
     
  2. faugusztin

    faugusztin I *am* the guy with two left hands

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    And you will be thrown out of court for wasting their time. Does it come with 32GB storage ? Yes. Did they say it will come with 32GB free space ? No. Courts and consumer protection looks at wording on the ads, not what you think it means.
     
  3. MightyBenihana

    MightyBenihana Do or do not, there is no try

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    In regards advertised hard disk space:

    Goodbytes, whilst usually agree with a lot you say, I have to disagree with you here.

    The peanut and McDonalds warning labels was the correct way to rules things if you know these cases. Peanuts are not nuts but peas and it was really standard law to cover all so yes some silly examples did show up. The McDonalds coffee thing was about serving temperatures and drinking temperatures when relating to fast food which should be able to be drunk straight away and the temperature was considered even to high for this.

    The reason I wanted to post here however is because this is very similar to an issue that was solved a long time ago, that of packaging weight on food. If you have ever noticed on food packaging the letter 'e' next to the weight. This means excluding packaging. That means you cannot buy a 30g packet of crisps that only have 5g of crisps and 25g of packaging.

    Why should a similar rule not be imposed here as this type of advertising is misleading to the layman.

    In the same way car manufacturers cannot only advertise fuel efficiency figures for optimum conditions (i.e. 56mph on a slight downhill slope) but have to provide 3 different indicators of inefficiency.
     
    Last edited: 17 Nov 2012
  4. MightyBenihana

    MightyBenihana Do or do not, there is no try

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    Could not be more incorrect, misleading claims are illegal.
     
  5. faugusztin

    faugusztin I *am* the guy with two left hands

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    Once again :
    Where do you see Free/Available space ? I see Storage. Does the tablet has 32GB storage ? Yes.

    Don't believe me ?
    http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+Teardown/11275/2
    Step 14.
    Samsung KLMBG4GE4A 32 GB NAND Flash (left)

    So, does it have 32GB storage ? Yes.

    http://www.apple.com/mac-mini/specs.html
    Does it has 500GB storage ? Yes. Does it has 500GB free space ? No.

    You may dislike it, but the fact is that technical specifications and product pages are not lying, neither misleading.

    If Microsoft would have said it comes with 32GB free space, then he would have a basis for lawsuit. But in this case, the whole lawsuit will be thrown out at first court instance with no rights to appeal.
     
  6. GoodBytes

    GoodBytes How many wifi's does it have?

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    Ah, well you see.. if he sued storage manufacture AND/OR OEMs, THEN I would agree with him. But he is suing Microsoft, for the Surface SPECIFICALLY. This means that he assume that the rest of the industry is correct, and Microsoft completely lied, and refused accepting the returning under the return period under the law. Which is not the case. And this is why I dont' agree with him.
     
  7. SlowMotionSuicide

    SlowMotionSuicide Come Hell or High Water

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    faugusztin, out of interest - how much usable storage capacity a manufacturer can take away out of the claimed one before you admit there is something fishy going on?

    Using your logic it would be perfectly ok for Microsoft to deliver 32GB device with the OS taking it up 100%, after all, it would still have the 32GB of storage, no matter none of it would be free/usable.

    Contrary to a popular belief, there are judges with down-to-earth attitudes and common sense, so I'm interested to see how the actual lawsuit will pan out.
     
    Last edited: 17 Nov 2012
  8. Nexxo

    Nexxo Queue Jumper

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    I'm sorry, but you're just being stubborn now. Storage does not imply free space. No false claims are made. How you choose to interpret it is entirely your problem, not Microsoft's.
     
  9. SlowMotionSuicide

    SlowMotionSuicide Come Hell or High Water

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    Makes two of us then, I see. At least I've been making an attempt at basic argumentation so far instead of calling names ;)

    Before the thread devolves to an all-out flamewar, good day to you gentlemen.
     
  10. faugusztin

    faugusztin I *am* the guy with two left hands

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    Actually, there were products with much, much worse ratio than Surface. For example Nexus One - Storage 512 MB (190 MB application storage). Or HTC Hero - Storage 512 MB, 165 for applications.

    The fact is, all this "lawyer" is doing is disputing the industry-wide standardized meaning of the word "Storage", which for everyone else means how much storage space is installed in the device, not how much of that storage space is free after the system is installed on it.
     
  11. MightyBenihana

    MightyBenihana Do or do not, there is no try

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    And here is where what the customer can reasonably expect vs reality comes in. It is reasonable to expect a OS to take up some room. Is it reasonable to expect it to take up 50% of the advertised space, no.

    Also no rights to appeal - you sound like a Daily Mail reader, high on opinion, low on facts/knowledge.

    Goodbytes. You make a good point. Maybe the lawsuit is misdirected but the principle is correct, even if he is only after money for himself.

    Legal definitions exist for a reason but are usually only defined by law after a dispute because someone decided to take the piss.
     
  12. rollo

    rollo Well-Known Member

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    So nexxo going to give us a surface rt review or you waiting on pro like a few people myself included ( which for the record is a totally different market )
     
  13. Alecto

    Alecto Member

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    Surface, just like Windows8 UI, was apparently designed by a color-blind person. I'm vision impaired so I don't pilot an airplane or drive a bus ... and the color-blind fellow who is responsible for these abominations should analogously keep away from design jobs.
     
  14. lp rob1

    lp rob1 New Member

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    I left this thread when I noticed that the whole Windows bloat thing a page back between me and GoodBytes was turning into a flamewar. Good day to you all as well.
     
  15. Yslen

    Yslen Lord of the Twenty-Seventh Circle

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    Microsoft openly came out and told everyone that it only has 16GB of free space before the launch, didn't they? Or did I imagine that?
     
  16. Nexxo

    Nexxo Queue Jumper

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    Er, no. Goodbytes and I argue that:

    • PCs and laptops are conventionally advertised with size of HDD, without mentioning how much storage the OS and bundled software takes up and how much is left.
    • Storage =! free space.
    Your argument is that nevertheless, people may reasonably interpret storage as free space. We argue that neither Microsoft nor any other manufacturer has any control over how people choose to interpret technical specs. You argue that regardless, people may reasonably interpret storage as free space. Kind of an impasse here, no?

    And to argue that calling you "being stubborn" is namecalling... really.
     
  17. theshadow2001

    theshadow2001 [DELETE] means [DELETE]

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    This was a non issue in the pc days when even if your system took up 32GB you had hundreds and hundreds of GB left. It is now more of an issue since space seems to be limited overall to 64GB on these type of devices.

    Any company can control how people interpret their specs, but generally choose to put some sort of spin on them in order to present the product in the best light. Any company can advertise the base system usage as well the overall storage, that is a very simple way for a company to control how people interpret technical specs(or better yet free space plus system space). By not providing that information is also another way a company can control how people interpret technical specs.

    Coca Cola put the calorific information on a bottle of coke as 2x250ml servings as opposed to 1x500ml serving. Thus making it seem like at first glance that its half as bad for you as it really is. Companies the world over deliberately spin specs, such as they are technically true but may not conform to how those spec actually apply to real usage. I mean this sort of smudging of data is prevelant in nearly any industry which requires some sort of technical declaration. As I said this storage space example is not the worst example of this kind of spin and smudging of specs but anything that goes against the trend is good in my books.

    When these devices eventually get the same type of storage as we enjoy on current day desktops and laptops then this will once again become a non issue.
     
  18. SlowMotionSuicide

    SlowMotionSuicide Come Hell or High Water

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    Even before I start typing, I already know I'm gonna regret this since anything good rarely comes out of internet arguments. But to hell with it.

    We agree on conventional advertised sizes of storage, and that the system is to an extent, inherently flawed. I also recognize it would be difficult and counter-productive to use actual free, usable space, as there are lots of factors which contribute to this, those not always being constant from device to device.

    I also argue that we as typical consumers have come to have certain expectations about how much usable space we are getting from a device. I can tell from experience I was somewhat disappointed when I got my first smarthphone, the iPhone 3GS 16GB and found out it only had something like 14.1GB usable space. But that's around 12%, something you give a sad face once and not think about again. (You can tell I wasn't too tech savvy back then). I also have Corsair SSD with 128GB claimed storage, which turns out something like 119GB formatted if my memory serves correct. The point here is the deviation in these instances is something like 10-15%, conservatively. I've been quoting 20-30% in my previous posts just to play it safe. I'm arguing most people expect they usually get something like 80-90% usable space at minimum out of a given device.

    Now imagine the outrage if the aforementioned Mac Mini would, out of the blue, come with 500GB 5400rpm HDD which would only have 250GB usable space. Percent-wise this would be exactly the same situation.

    I'm not saying MS is inherently doing anything differently than other manufacturers, only that this 50% thing is really pushing it too far and exploiting the general goodwill on the subject. They will need some sort of slap to the wrist, as would any other manufacturer trying to pull similar stunt off. I fear this might set a dangerous precedent, leading to more manufacturers coming up with less and less accurate specs in the future.

    I really dislike participating in heated arguments in foreign language, I know I'm coming forth with more simplistic arguments than I'd like because I'm not as fluent in producing english content as I'd like. I hate wasting mental cycles and thought processes on something as simple as translation. As an exercise of frustration, precious few activity comes even close.

    Sorry if I overreacted. But I'd like you to remember, not everyone here speaks english natively, so I'm slave to my cultural background and upbringing. Stubborn translates literally to itsepäinen in finnish, and it has a distinct derogatory flavor to it. Were you to call me one in person, it just might earn a punch in the face ;) Also, calling someone stubborn just because they disagree with you isn't very productive, now is it?
     
    Last edited: 17 Nov 2012
  19. GoodBytes

    GoodBytes How many wifi's does it have?

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    They did, this is why the news broke off. If Microsoft kept quiet, all this conversation, which is probably occurring in about any tech forum, won't even exists. I think Microsoft shot themselves in the foot by being truthful with it's users.
     
  20. GoodBytes

    GoodBytes How many wifi's does it have?

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    It's practice! If you see my English back in my 2007 posts compared to now... My English was more Engloush (broken English with lots of missing words in sentences) than English.

    So you see, good things do come out from internet arguments. :)
     

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