Perhaps controversial this thread, but anyway, here goes.. I came across a collection of pictures today that sickened and disturbed me, basically they showed a lot of young children who had been dressed up as Islamic militants by their parents, posing with weapons and pretend suicide bomber jackets in front of banners for the Al Aqsa martyrs brigade and so forth. Take a look Lots more here.... Bear in mind this site, like every other on the Palestinian or Israeli conflict, will have an agenda (in this case it seems against the Palestinian authority), but this does not change what the pictures show IMHO. Most western media does not show pictures such as these - images of militant rallies are fairly common, but rarely seem to focus on the children present. I have for a while felt that the violence from Palestinian is perpetuated by parents who pass on the same views and opinions to their children from a very young age, encouraged by the militants eager to see more people willing to die for their cause (which, I remind, for the militants is not just the formation of a Palestinian state, but often also the destruction of the state of Israel). Why does our media rarely show such images? A quote I came across on the wesbsite seems very poignant to these pictures: IMHO, thats not the only thing necessary for peace, but I see here point.. Yours thoughts?
Nice parents. Maybe if they spent a little more time raising their youth the proper way instead of posing them with weaponry and militry drab we wouldn't have such a huge problem.
I totaly agree with that quote. There's no way that there can be peace untill parents teach the value of peace, understanding and cooporation to their children. Those picures are just scarry. I can't imagine giving my children a gun - even just to hold onto for a picture! I remember the Cold War quite well and can remember the "duck and cover" drills in elementary schools. We were supposed to hate Communism and what it stood for, but I don't recall once where one of my parents told me that I need to go out and kill people because of it. Sad.
Its not so much that they have a gun, but what it represents. I started shooting a .22 when I was 6 years old. Theres a huge difference between me having that .22 at 6 and those kids having any kind of gun at their age. I was using it for recreation and small game hunting later on. These kids are being brought up thinking its okay to shoot people because you hate them. So very very wrong.
This is one of the many reason why the conflict has gone on so long. Ignorance is breading more ignorance. I can remember a special that aired on PBS a few years back that followed a group of Palestinian and Israeli high school students who went to school and grew up togther. Both goverments eventually put a stop to this and forced the kids to go to either Israeli or Palestinian schools. What will always stick in my mind is a number of the kids telling the reporter they can not understnad why they can no longer see their friends. To them the conflict didn't matter to them. I think it will take a whole generations of kids thinking this way to make a change. That is if they live long enough to make a difference.
Just wondering...Were you ever exposed to a reason why communism was deemed so bad or was it simply an attitude around at the time that 'those damn commies are threatening our democracy'? *n
August 1, 1968 -- Little too young for Vietnam. My father was drafted for the war, but was turned down because he had some heath problem. I can't remember what it was...
I havent read all replies.....but who says any of this is wrong or immoral or anything backwards? Perhaps...that this is how it must be?
"I havent read all replies.....but who says any of this is wrong or immoral or anything backwards? Perhaps...that this is how it must be?" well...i guess you could say that..but then you could say that about anything that you disagree with on a moral standpoint. But I'd have to personally say that pushing any ideology on your children is just bad. And I know you could probably cite quite a few examples of things that we'd never think about, but, i guess something needs to be said for those radical militant ideologies that do nothing more than spread hate. It's sad that this happens at all...but...i'm glad that someone here can think openly about such things, a voice of reason is always a necessity...
So 'how it must be' involves bringing up young children with the idea that its good to kill others, and hate them 'just because'? I'm applying my own moral standards to their (the Palestinians parents) behaviour of course, something which we in the west are often criticised for, and to be fair that accusation has some merit. We are quick to criticise many of the countries in the Middle East for their attitude to women, quick to forget that its their religion and culture which they've held for millions of years, and that it isn't necessarily 'wrong', just different. But when it comes to parents bringing up their children thinking its a good thing to become a suicide bomber, then I certainly think thats wrong and goes beyond cultural freedom. Religion or cultural expression is fine, but when it goes beyond that and becomes hatred, then thats what I will start to call it immoral. My 2p
We're also quick to forget that it was our own countries' attitude to women less than 100 years ago, again a sincere belief by people with an equal mental capacity to our own. Our change in attitude to black people is far more recent, and still not complete. Severe religious bigotry in Northern Ireland probably affects the same small percentage of people that it does in Middle Eastern countries, and goes back to events over 300 years ago, but they're still ready to kill someone just because they're the wrong religion. All nations are on different time-lines, different stages of development, and trying to "update" a part (to conform with a current Western trend) without addressing the whole socio-economic background is going to cause friction. Our current Western attitude to our own religions is (IMO) very cynical - OK but don't let it interfere with No.1. The suicide bombers are still ready to die in the belief that they'll be treated as heroes in the afterlife. How do you prove who's wrong? Forcing British control over the young States didn't work, so why should attempts elsewhere do any better? Easy to win wars, damned hard to win minds.
You could equally also say that it is perpetuated on the Israeli side through the parents (and indeed the state) teaching their children to hate and discriminated against palestinians. The problem is this is always going to happen, whilst many children like to think they rebel against their parents' views, most don't or just blindly tack the opposite stand point to be different. Very few actually look for the facts and make a clear and balanced judgement free of preconceptions and prejudices. Incidently I think that this perpetuating through generations is wrong, unescapable and required for the quasi-democratic structure we have to our world. Totally. There are many many more instances as well, it is worth noting that our country didn't get rich through some form of magic or natural resources, it was essentially off the backs of others. So true, if only someone had explained this to dubya and pres blair before their little foray Whilst I believe they did think about their actions in invading Iraq, I also believe they didn't concern themselves with really considering the long term problems and implications and acted in a reactionary manner. That is what I really disapproved of about the war. I fear it could be one we are dealing with for the next 50-500 years..... Northern Ireland/North of Ireland, Palestine/Israel and probably countless over places will be testimony to this. A.
All war creates long-term problems and implications and to forgo war because of them is playing into the hands of the despots and dictators who have no such scruples. The population of Germany suffered far far more at the end of WW2 than the Iraqis have now. Did thoughts of the implications of making war on this country stop the Allied invasion to remove AH? Nope. Western society has grown soft both physically and mentally. We are used to comfort, time-saving appliances, being well-fed, overweight and unfit, and insulated from the troubles of the poorer nations - relating to them through the 2-D surreal images on our TV sets each night. It's been so long since war on a massive scale (the fight for national survival type) has touched us that we shudder at what happens in wartime. Just remember that there are many many people who hate you and I because we live in the US, or UK or Australia or Europe or, well, anywhere! Many of these folks aren't soft, or overweight, or squeamish and will kill you or I without remorse because of where we were born and raised. To defeat them we need to be as hard, as cunning and as ruthless - it's a fact of war. That we are constantly berated and vilified by people who ooh and aah about how terrible the world can be costs lives. These same people are the first to cry 'save us save us' when the guns start to sound on their horizons. There never really has been a war against a large, modern country covered so thoroughly as the latest Iraq war. WW2 was horrific by comparison to anything since but it's so far in the past and there wasn't the media coverage then (as was Korea). Viet Nam (to the west) was just lots of Jungle and some villages (basically 3rd world) to most folks, the first Gulf War was a big video game and shooting gallery with realitively few coalition casualties. Afghanistan was some more villages. With Iraq you have a full invasion of a (realitively) modern country with an occupation afterwards - all under the blazing glare of public scrutiny. At least the US is trying to do the right thing and help the place get back on its feet rather than just going "jobs done off we go" and leaving the big mess to itself. At the least, as an expression of what's going to happen to any countries that help the enemies of the western world, it was effective. I know some opposition politicians in Australia try to push the fiction that most aussies were opposed to the war. The fact is, all the newspaper opinion polls (and most people in the street) were all for getting rid of Saddam. I saw a talk show where an Iraqi woman who had fled to Aus told her story. Tortured, her husband was poisoned by the govt, she had to flee. It was terrible stuff. After seeing that I was prepared to go to Baghdad and kick saddams door down meself. If anyone wasn't aware, Australia had the 3rd largest contingent of troops there behind the US and UK and our special forces were the farthest inside Iraq at the beginning. War is hell and lots of folks die and have their lives ruined. People need to understand and accept it as a fact of war. You don't have to like war (I don't) but sometimes it happens (and is even necessary on occasion). We shouldn't teach our kids to hate - that's just wrong. But it happens. All we can do is bring our kids up to care about and respect others - by being that way ourselves.
Of course, I didn't mean to make out like it was just perpetuated by one side, just I haven't seen any images such as this of Israelis with their kids with M-16s. Thats obviously not to say it doesn't go on mind, just I haven't seen it so obviously in pictures such as these (though the Israelis do like taking some of their own rather bloodthirsty pictures, ever seen the ones of the IDF soldiers gloating over the bodies of the people they'd just shot, grins on their faces and waving their guns above their heads...).
One point - until Hitler started invading other countries, Britain and America were quite prepared to let him do what he liked within Germany. When Iraq invaded Kuwait, there was a clear case for action. The case for the second Gulf War was based, I believe, on blatant lies by Bush and Blair, so would much public support have been there for the truth? "He's a nasty piece of work but no real threat to us..."
Of course, just look at Pol Pot. He killed millions of his own people and just look what happened to him, practically nothing. We really don't care what dictators do in their own countries unless it effects us directly. If it effects us then their genocide is "wrong" and the dictator is "evil". Then we declare war on them, but not because of the genocide. The genocide reason is the "public reason".
Thats probably true, but thats politics. Most people will agree that such-and-such dictator is an ass and must die, go to jail, etc. Yet, when it comes to sending their sons and daughters to do the killing/jailing, volunteers are hard to find. Its political suicide for a leader to try to send troops based on that one reason alone. Sad, but true.
