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Modding Mod of the month/year Pro competition only?

Discussion in 'Modding' started by Sn3akr, 17 Jan 2018.

?

What do you think?

  1. I'd like to see them split up

    4 vote(s)
    36.4%
  2. I don't care

    7 vote(s)
    63.6%
  1. Sn3akr

    Sn3akr New Member

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    I've been following the mods on bit-tech for years now, but i find it harder and harder to get excited about MOTM/MOTY competitions since most of them by now are all made by use of CNC, CAD, 3D printers and more. Most of what is out of reach of the average modder and used by professional.

    I would love to see the MOTM/MOTY getting split up into a pro and an amateur group, that way we would get to see more of the mods done by really skilled craftsmen that doesn't have nearly endless supplies of materials and 10-100.000$+++ worth of machinery getting recognized for their skills using hand tools.

    Of course the fabricated stuff looks great.. But there's a reason those machines are so expensive.. CNC is almost "press print and assemble" and is more a matter of design skills in CAD, than having skills with files, scroll saw etc.

    Let's get it split up between CAD and craftsmanship so both groups can get rewarded for their different skillsets! And then the guys without access to 100.000$+ machineshops, can get tips from others with limited amount of tools at hand, instead of their logs being buried underneath all the heavily sponsored professionals (even though those logs generate more income! Let's face it, they don't sponsor just for the fun of it.)
     
  2. The_Crapman

    The_Crapman Don't phone it's just for fun.

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    One of my favourite builds of the year and motm winner and MotY nominee was project cu by maatlrten/pine. No sponsors, no cnc, back to basics ghetto modding, but utterly brilliant non the less.

    Different people have different methods, non more or less skillful than another. And your dismissal of cad/cnc as easy as clicking a button does it grave injustice. Having the creativity to imagine it, the drive to put the design into form and the dedication to see it through to completion should be the only prerequisites for any of the competitions. The 3rd is worthy of an award all on its own, just ask my near 4 year old semi- abandoned case mod. :hehe:
     
  3. Sn3akr

    Sn3akr New Member

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    I don't judge their sense of design or creativity, but using CAD and CNC, doesn't involve more creativity than doing things by hand, and there's a reason it's used in industry, it's faster, and easier than doing things by hand and requires less skill. In cad you can check alignments etc before production on the screen, that is far harder to achieve with hand made stuff, which is also why i think they should be split into different groups as it's 2 completely different skillsets.
     
  4. The_Crapman

    The_Crapman Don't phone it's just for fun.

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    And doing things by hand is not more difficult or more skillful, just different.

    So what you want is one for purely hand tools, one for power tools, one for home built cnc, one for "professional" cnc. Double that for case mod and scratch build. Double again for your "pro vs amateur" split, 16 different awards. Ridiculous.
     
  5. Nexxo

    Nexxo Bargaining chip

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    Agreed. I'm not sure that CNC or 3D printing requires less skill. It's not just a matter of drawing a shape, sending it to a machine and away we go. There is a lot of knowledge, skill and consideration in the design itself (every technique has its limitations), in the materials used, in how to set up the machine etc.

    Moreover many tools are pretty accessible these days. If you can afford to buy a nVidia GTX1080, an iPhone or a HDTV, you can afford buy a lathe, a mill or a 3D printer. And learn to use them.

    Basically I think the competition is about how well someone can realise an original vision based on the tools and materials at their disposal. Obviously the design one comes up with has these limitations in mind --I would not design something that can only be realised with tools I don't have access to or no skill in using (although part of the challenge is to learn).
     
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  6. Guest-23315

    Guest-23315 Guest

    ...Im just bored of seeing the same hard-lined loop, individually sleeved cables in every ****ing mod.
     
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  7. The_Crapman

    The_Crapman Don't phone it's just for fun.

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    [​IMG]
     
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  8. Maki role

    Maki role Dale you're on a roll... Staff

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    I don't agree with the main point at all, whatsoever. In fact this is something that frustrates me to no end as somebody who constantly gets their work bashed for being CNC cut and similar, even when it isn't.

    Tatami last year was made by somebody who did it purely for personal use, that's the most expertly machined PC in the history of this site, so where does that leave your assessment? Where's the line drawn? You have access to a CNC? What about a plotter, a garage full of woodworking tools, decades of experience, MONEY? No you just end up with silly categories that don't achieve anything. I built Vesper and Loramentum in a bedroom using a drumming stool as a workbench, yet both of those would fall under professional.

    Every year, every bloody year this topic comes up.
     
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  9. CrapBag

    CrapBag Well-Known Member

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    I have to agree to be honest, Sorry I just do.

    It does seem to be the case that the only people who get accredited are the pros that have all the equipment and sponsorship to do great stuff.

    Custom PC are terrible for this, every person shown in the mag is some one who has made some incredible pc (doesn't matter if they have paid others to do stuff).

    They win a bunch of prizes when they have virtually been paid to create their stuff.

    Seems like you make a good little mod and it just gets ignored cos you haven't made a pc to look like an F1 car etc.

    I made a good little mod and yes I don't expect to win anything but I literally got no response.

    If every year the topic comes up maybe you should stop ignoring it and make multiple categories?
     
  10. The_Crapman

    The_Crapman Don't phone it's just for fun.

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    I was designing ratmod in sketchup, I had the leasure of doing it at work with games artists and designers to help and guide, whilst running out my gardening leave, and it was still, So. F'ing. Hard. To get what I had in my head onto the screen.

    And that was just to plan out what I did with hand tools.

    It's still sat next to my pc in a box. Waiting. Plotting. Ideas coming, developing, certified and changed again. I really want to finish it this year, but finding the energy and motivation to do so in amongst work and renovations and other commitments, it's HARD.

    So many modders do so in amongst the madness of life, even as a professional, and each and every one is legendary, purely for the effort and dedication. Everyone should be made to read through Project Cu by Maarten/Pine. As much
    Verktøy Cu by Derick 'should' be my favourite, I have a massive hardon for copper, I LOVE Project Cu. It's superb. It's good old fashioned ghetto modding, with the style of modern builds. It's what has made me want to finish mine.
     
  11. CrapBag

    CrapBag Well-Known Member

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    The point I tried to make is small mods are just as important because others maybe able to copy them.

    I've done stuff that literally got ignored cos it wasn't super duper fantastic.

    Everyone deserves a little credit even for just effort alone.
     
  12. CrapBag

    CrapBag Well-Known Member

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    Elaborate on people's smaller mods that may not have taken as long but are equally as important.
     
  13. VipersGratitude

    VipersGratitude Well-Known Member

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    You're welcome
     
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  14. The_Crapman

    The_Crapman Don't phone it's just for fun.

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    Sorry if you thought I was against your pov, that was not my intention. I'm pretty much aligned with your opinion.

    That for the Op?
     
  15. Maki role

    Maki role Dale you're on a roll... Staff

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    Okay so here’s my take on things now that I’ve had some time, and a cuppa or two, to cool down and think about things.

    The problem in particular that I have at least with overly stringent categories (such as amateur vs pro, CAD vs hand work) is that there’s a false believe that there are clean divisions between these fields. Now for an event such as Dreamhack you can make this work as you can apply criteria before hand. The same goes for competitions hosted by companies through Bit-Tech, who have in the past been won by amateurs and pros alike.

    The thing is though, Mod of the Year is a no rules tournament. It’s a straight up boxing match between the favourite builds that are finished in a given year. Whose favourites? Yours, they’re chosen by the community, so if a particular build doesn’t make it in then it’s because the community didn’t nominate it. We’re very clear about this.

    Why in theory should small mods necessarily automatically get in? Does a fun runner get into the Olympics? Sure, if they work hard to become a bloody good runner. This isn’t a matter of small mods not being important, but if you require constant recognition for quick personal projects then you may need to reconsider why you’re modding, because clearly you’re not enjoying it for the sake of the activity itself.

    We all get a kick out of being shown off and lauded, but if that’s all you do an activity for then how can you expect to enjoy it when things don’t go your way?

    Now to address my thoughts on the fuzzy lines between categories, I’ll pose some examples. What if member ‘A’ isn’t wealthy and loves building special machines. In order to continue their hobby they reach out for financial support from a company, they’re sent some fancy RGB fans that help the build along. They’re officially a sponsored modder now and it’s quite exciting. Now in comes member ‘B’, now B also likes to build special machines, but has a well paid job and quite some means. B buys the exact hardware they want to use, and then begins work using some top notch materials to construct their mod. B doesn’t apply for sponsorship because they can afford the parts they need and don’t want hassle nor intrusion.

    So of these two, who goes where? We have one of reduced means and great talent plus support, and one of great means and talent but no support.

    Okay let’s add member C who’s a retired joiner, C decides to use the materials he’s worked with over the last 40 years, along with his tooling. His hardware is basic because it’s recycled from another build, but he spends a long time picking the perfect materials and working away at it using his experience.

    Hello member ‘D’, she’s a student who wants to build something really special that she drew up after class one day. She doesn’t really have all that much, but knows some people who can help her to realise the design. She designs the build, and sends some parts to be professionally handled by a friend with the right machinery. Meanwhile she slaves away to finish everything else by hand since she can’t afford any other parts to be done outside, her tools are basic but she does was she can with them.

    See where I’m going with this? How does one specifically categorise things in a truly fair manner based on construction and access? Sports etc where things are divided into talent pools are organised using very straightforward metrics.

    As far as I can see, the only way to do that is to provide matching hardware to people and have them mod with access to specific tooling. These contests exist, but that’s not the point of Mod of the Year.

    At the end of the day, these professionals are just folks pulling multiple jobs trying to balance their passion for the hobby with their daily lives etc. I see people saying that they don’t feel welcome for being a novice etc. Well I can definitely confirm that I’ve not really felt all that welcome for a very long time as a so called professional by some of the more deep rooted community here.

    I will be working very hard to make sure that Bit will continue to attract new and old modders alike, that much is certain.
     
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  16. Nexxo

    Nexxo Bargaining chip

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    1. All mods are worthy.
    2. If you can buy £600,-- of hardware, you can buy a lathe, mill or 3D printer.
    3. If you can buy a lathe, mill or 3D printer, you can learn to use it.
    4. Google Sketchup is free.
     
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  17. Sn3akr

    Sn3akr New Member

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    That's nothing to do with modding.. That's just paying someone to do it for you.
     
  18. Vault-Tec

    Vault-Tec Green Plastic Watering Can

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    You know I have really kept very quiet on this whole thing for a very long time. However, having gone through what I have it's pretty clear that this hobby is rather tainted.

    To pretty much every one my mods are going to seem and look very low rent. However, I don't have any machines other than a plotter I use to make blueprints to cut from. When I built my Waynio tribute it took me three months nearly to complete. Three months, at least 5 hours a day with nothing but a Dremel and some other general hand tools (pliers, etc).

    When I built the Triad it took more like 6 months. On and off of course. I won Corsair update and placed second in Mod Of The Month. Which I was happy with, but at the same time disappointed. I'm not a very competitive person and I hate the behaviour that comes along with that sort of thing. I lost to a mod that would take a CNC machine about 8 hours to complete. Bit of plastic weld, job done.

    And tbh? I really wouldn't give a crap. However, when you spend a week making something a machine could make in mere minutes it kinda cuts deep. Especially when there seems to be no recognition for that at all. Case in point? whenever there is a "meet the modders" or anything like that no one contacted me. No one even asked me. Just this small predictable circle that hangs around on various forums.

    People could argue with me all day but I see passion and hard work in mods, not just the mods. I've been around on modding forums for the best part of a decade, and I am still obsessed with modding and spending countless hours doing it. I didn't just come along with a mod or two, then bugger off.

    It's people like me you need. Trust me on that. People with passion who don't just pass in the night and then bugger off. Problem is everything is about money, isn't it? don't get me wrong Alex your mods are other worldly but they are also other wordly sort of money. I have the most incredible ideas for mods, but I always have to find the cash for them too. I've only ever been sponsored once and got a free ram cooler worth £12. That was years ago. Every other mod I've done (including all of the hardware) I have had to pay for myself. Yet all of the builds that win things are usually the result of several thousand pounds.

    How can I compete with that? simple answer - I can't.

    Try and remember it's the bloke with the Dremel who got all of this started.

    And what if you live in a small flat/studio flat with no outside space at all and no shed? stick it in your bog?

    I think you take a lot for granted with those conditions.
     
    Last edited: 22 Jan 2018
  19. Vault-Tec

    Vault-Tec Green Plastic Watering Can

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    Other things to note.

    Usually the camera taking the pictures of this hardware costs more than most people's entire mod, tools included. They make things actually look better than they do IRL. This has scared loads of people away, who don't want to look stupid by posting phone/potato pics.
    The mods are usually thousands of pounds worth of equipment used to create them. Mostly it's design - send somewhere else - assemble.
    In fact the mod I lost to (Tim) was just that. He designed it, sent it away and then glued it together.
    Nobody replies to people just doing "ordinary" modding. The audience has either gone, or, felt like they could never produce something even post worthy.
    It's always the same circle of modders doing the stuff and getting mag/forum time. I could name them, but it's pretty pointless. I am sure every one knows who I am referring to.

    Look at that recent mod by Andreas. Stunning to behold, but I bet if you asked him what it would cost he would be afraid to tell you. THAT won mod of the month, THAT won mod of the year, right?

    I don't know how to fix this. It's the same forum wide. No one bothers with the little guy it's always stuff like this that gets all of the attention.

    [​IMG]

    Which people go bonkers for, even though it's f*****g ridiculous and a total waste of money. Then some guy posts his mid level build and gets like one reply "Yeah nice etc yawn".

    Even to a layman it's pretty obvious how you get good and modding. You simply have to have more money than the bloke who won it last time. Money does that. To everything in life. I see it all of the time everywhere in every hobby I am fond of. Even BMX bikes. Some bloke comes along, every post, posting a bike he's spent five grand on. All about the money, see?
     
  20. Maki role

    Maki role Dale you're on a roll... Staff

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    It sounds to me like you're bashing your head against a wall and hoping it will give way, if I'm honest. Since being given the opportunity to meet modders all over the world, I've come to realise how some people just make it work from nothing. Many of the folks in the Philippines, Vietnam and Thailand have (or had when they started) next to nothing, and yet they produce absolute modding wonders. These guys work obscenely hard and compete at an international level against any and everybody, and win. So the idea that somebody over here can't compete just because they don't have a CNC is something I don't subscribe to, sorry. Do you think everybody who's ever posted one of these "expensive" builds are just millionaires throwing money at each other?

    I like talking to people about modding, it's a universal language, not about comparing who has what and why. The fallacy is in always waiting, that fruit will drop from the tree. Did you know you can take those squeaky clean photos with a phone, if you just try and learn? Did you know that with basic tools (a single scroll saw and files) you can win a contest like Thermaltake's recent Invitational and walk away with 8k? Did you know that those builds with the stupidly OP hardware don't tend to go very far?

    Stop blaming other people, calm yourself down and actually look at what people are doing, and ask yourself why can't you do that? If the answer is "Because I'm not rich" it means you didn't try to figure anything out, you just fell at the first hurdle. Try to think of the work people actually put into projects, because when I'm there until 4 am working hard on builds in order to progress anything and then get told "Oh the machine did it, it's not modding, you just pay others" it gets very grating. Unfortunately this is what many of us now deal with on a daily basis from the very place that made us take up the activity in the first place, wonderful.
     
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