Motors My Celica GT-Four Build Thread! - And Then There Were 4 (Update 25/08/20)

I did this during the summer on my car.

Before:


After:



I had mine acid dipped as I didn't want any of the crap from bead/nut blasting getting into the non-removable baffles. Shame the chap left it too long in the acid tank. He didn't realise it was magnesium and not aluminium

Left me with pretty much just as much prep compared to knocking it back my hand



Feel free to have a look at the other pics here

 

Nice car! Love the colour scheme, and those cam covers look absolutely gorgeous!

 

GT4 huh - you rally slag.

Prefer 2 seats myself ..

 

Well, I think it's about time this got a bump! If nothing else, to remind you that I haven't forgotten about it Thanks for the Stoner Racing link on the previous page Krikkit. I'll add them to my list of fabricators/race prep shops for when the time comes to get the chassis sorted. I've thought a lot about the cage since and I definitely think it's going to be a full custom welded cage as opposed to a purchased one that can be bolted or welded in. Purely because of all the features that I want the cage to have, I think it's the only option.

Great job on your cam covers, Mark. They look absolutely awesome compared to how they were finished before! That's a real beauty of a car and clearly very well looked after

That's a very nice MR2 splosh - is it yours or were you just making the point that you like them better than the GT4? Don't get me wrong, I love the MR2 as well, but I've always had a soft spot for the Celica and I'm totally set on it now. If nothing else, because it's an AWD car that handles like it's on rails when set up correctly Don't automatically take me for a rally slag! I'll admit I love that the GT4 had great success as a WRC and the road going version has that same rallying pedigree, but mine will be strictly a track & road car.

Also love the thread tags!

 

Here's a small planning update - I've been discussing my engine build options on the OC and DC (owners club and drivers club) with both general members and with people who have built race engines for their own cars or have had someone build them. I've come across a couple of snags and I'm a little confused at the moment. I'll bullet point them so this doesn't become a large wall of text:

- I enquired about who would be best to do the machine work and blueprinting on my head and block. I was advised to contact JEMS (John Edwards Motorsport) and tell them exactly what I wanted out of the engine and what I wanted to spend, and that Jon would make it happen and guarantee the engine for whatever performance I had specified. He is renowned as the UK expert on engine performance, especially the 3SGTE. The problem with this is that I don't want them to build the engine, I just want them to do the compression tests and machining on the components and then send it back to me so that I can build it myself. Apparently they won't do this, at the very least they have to build the short block and send it to me assembled. I would assume the same applies for the head (I was only enquiring about block machining at the time). Not sure what to do about this now. Obviously there's a lot more expense involved in having a professional engine builder put the engine together for you, but I wanted to do it myself and just have them do the initial blueprinting for me.

- A senior member of one of the clubs mentioned to me yesterday that he hadn't seen twin external wastegates on a car since Group C turbos in the 1980's and furthermore, advised me that twin scroll turbo systems were "only really useful for road use" and that I should drop that idea and just use a standard turbo. I think his exact words were "don't pursue that idea any further". All I can think of when I repeat that in my head is: Wut?

This advice is coming from someone who had JEMS build them a race engine a couple of years ago, and is waiting on them finishing his chassis at the moment. I'm assuming he doesn't know what he's talking about - Twin EWG systems have been on plenty of cars since the 80's and there's a lot of evidence to prove that a twin scroll turbo has massive benefits over a standard turbo, both on the road and the track. Thoughts, anyone?

- I think I've found a manifold that is close enough to the spec that I require - it's a twin scroll manifold for the 3SGTE from Full-Race. It's not cheap, but none of the turbo system is going to be. It's welded tubular stainless steel, has twin EWG port flanges and a BoV port flange. I emailled them this morning to ask if it can be supplied with a T4 flange for the Garret GT35 - I assume that won't be a problem but I'm asking to confirm it. It's shown on their site with a T3 flange - I'm getting the turbo from them anyway, so probably the best thing to do would be order both at the same time when the time comes and let them know that I need the manifold flange to suit the turbo that I just bought off them

[edit]

The manifold looks like this as standard, but for an extra $150 they will cerakote it in black ceramic, which I'll have done:

 

Stumbled across some pics you might enjoy Uni, to keep you imagining a bit of shell work in the future... A Scoob being prepped at Prodrive:

Add-on bits (most of them anyway):










And the near-finished article:

(Notice the highly epic spit for keeping shells on to make them a bit easier to work with!)

 

So much...engine porn...

So beautiful...

Lol at the tags: ladas are better and should have got an mr2.

 

T is for Teaser.

 

You know there's still time to reconsider which chassis you're going to put it into.

 

What, your Honda Beat? Sorry bud, I don't think it'll fit

 

Stop teasing us dammit!

It's taken 6 months to do just the cam cover, the rest of the project will take, what, 50 years?

 

I know you're half joking and half serious, but sorry, this is how it's going to be until I make a proper start! If it's any consolation, I'm as eager to make progress as you are to see it, but things that I need to happen haven't fallen into place yet. I already know that I won't be starting this year. It's unfortunate, but it's a reality that I've come to accept. Patience is vital because I'm not half doing this - this car is going to be built the "Unicorn way". No half measures Also, my final working week from 07:00 on Monday morning to this moment right now has been 62 hours, and I'm going back to work in half an hour after I get something to eat. I also have a 16-17 hour day scheduled for tomorrow, finishing at about 01:00 on Sunday morning. Now that school has started and I'm there 20-25 hours per week, that's what I can expect for the forseeable future. I'm not complaining (not even a little, because my new job is awesome ) but it doesn't leave me with any free time for activities like engine building :/

You could knock the zero off your time estimate and be fairly close. Yes, there is a project schedule. Yes, it is realistic. No, I'm still probably not going to be able to keep to it

I never did thank you for sharing these. I drooled a little when I saw them!

I love the MR2, but I love the GT-Four more! The GT-Four has much more potential than an MR2 for my purpose. Modified MR2's seem to inevitably end up as drag racers, but I'm only interested in a track car. I want to end up with something that I can take around corners on UK and European racing tracks as if it's running on rails

Cheers, Celica club is actually one of the very few that I'm not a member of at the moment! Watch this space

 

I was talking about an MR2.

But you'd be surprised about the Beats; seen people drop H22s into them. 220BHP in a 750kg car ~ 300bhp/ton.

 

Nah - it's all joke - you'll start the project when you can, and it'll go the pace it needs to. I've seen enough logs to know it has to be very Zen, the more the audience cry "faster" the slower the builders go!

 

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifi...celica/toyota-celica-gt4-st205-import/1106918

Unicorn is this any use? I have PM'd you same link in case you miss this.

 

late back to this : the mr2 was my car, got rid of it last year, and it was used as a 1/4 miler. Got a Citroen C2 now, bit of a change LOL

on topic : imoc.co.uk - a few people on there have extensive Celica knowledge as well as '2s.

Same for mr2oc.com (not co.uk) ... A lot of tech info on 3s-gte from the states. (site also incorporates celicatech IIRC

You must be after drag car levels of power to want a full-race mani. Had a phoenix power on mine, keep it JDM tyte, yo. You may be surprised at the data on twin scroll turbos on the 3S. Last time I looked into it, it wasn't as clear-cut as you might imagine.

Can you still get any TTE parts for the Celica ?

 

Thanks for posting - looks like a good project to buy and a decent price with only 61K on the clock, but unfortunately I'm still not looking for a whole car at the moment. I still plan on building the engine and gearbox first, then dropping it into a chassis for testing, then finishing the rest of the work on the chassis and body. The run of bad luck I've had with my current car over the past few months has set me back a bit financially, delaying the start of this project, but I'm still sticking with it. Some other unforseen circumstances mean I also don't have a garage to work in at the moment - it's full from wall to wall and floor to ceiling with furniture that will likely be staying there for at least the next 6 months, or whenever my brother finds a new place to live, so I don't even have anywhere to work on an engine never mind the whole car.

What were your power figures like and what were you running the quarter in? Care to share any wisdom on what you did with the 3S-GTE to get there?

I'm now a member on any site you could think of that carries any knowledge on the 3S-GTE or the Celica I'm definitely after drag spec power levels, although obviously that's not what it's going to be used for. Eventually I'd like to be able to get it north of the 500 mark, but that's after I've run the new engine in and become accustomed to driving something with 300 ish ATW. I want the engine to be built to handle 500+, and a Full Race manifold can get that done.

I'm still looking into the twin scroll system, and whilst I haven't found anything conclusive yet, I'd rather do some hands-on R&D on the subject myself as opposed to taking someone's word for it. So far, I know that there's a lot of torque and quick spool to be had from a TS setup with the right turbo and manifold on the right engine, but top end power is restricted because of the lower peak flow. I think there's a sweet spot to be found somewhere between plenty of power, torque and most importantly quick spool with a setup like I have planned though. I know that not many people have tried it on the GT4, which sort of makes me even more eager to make it work. There is a lot of supporting evidence for twin scroll working well on other platforms but it seems that nobody has tried really hard to make it work with the 3S-GTE once the stock turbo comes off. I think to get the benefit of a twin scroll setup on a high BHP 2L, you have to go bigger than a GT35 turbo, which obviously means using a tuned, divided manifold and also means you’re aiming for a higher level of boost and higher power band to begin with, all of which means a lot more expense and hassle for potentially not a lot of gain.

I’m in the catch-22 position of wanting to go north of 500BHP eventually, but wanting to be able to run it much lower than that at first, which is going to be difficult to achieve because I could end up with a car that is capable of making big power, but spools very slowly if not run at full boost, or is capable of making big power and spooling fast, but is less reliable as a result of that higher power band (you don’t have to look far to see that even achieving more than 500BHP with a 3S-GTE is difficult, expensive and is capable of causing endless reliability problems if you don't go about it in exactly the right way). Still, I think getting a TS setup right would be much more satisfying and beneficial than taking what I see so often as the “easy” way out – sticking in a tuned runner manifold with a GT35 turbo and a large A/R housing and cranking up the boost. As I’m sure you can tell, I still have loads more R&D to do on the turbo setup before I make a start!

Here's the bottom line to the turbo question for now; Since the last time I updated this thread, I went and did a lot more homework. I found out that Full Race have built Twin Scroll setups on both ST205 Celicas and 2JZGTE Supras for Toyota North America in the past, and Toyota were "ecstatic with the results" on all occasions. I've been in touch with one of the engineers who was involved in the design of the manifolds that made those vehicles possible, and he seemed optimistic about me achieving my overall goal of a fast spooling 500BHP+ 3SGTE with plenty of torque as long as I am willing to spend enough money on it, which probably includes paying them to design and manufacture a custom tuned manifold and modified turbo for the car. There is still a lot more research to be done before I make a decision.

Yes, you can still get some TTE parts, but they seem hard to get unless you know the right people. "As rare as hens teeth" can be putting it mildly as far as some of the stuff is concerned, such as the TTE Corolla manifold that I am considering if I don't go with twin scroll.

 

Hub figures (tuned by Ryan G of 2bartuning) :



That was a tuned apexi power-fc. GT3076, 272's , 850 injectors and a boat-load of supporting mods. Did the 1/4 in 12 flat, with a terminal of 127 mph (and a 60foot of SLLOOOOW) - If I was a good driver it should have been capable of low to mid 11's.
If I were doing it again, I'd skip the cams - they give a chunk more top-end (especially when rev-ing over 8k), but you lose all the lo-down pushed into the seat fun you get with stock cams. - Was nice giving people hope that they were going to beat you though, then when boost kicks in going past like a bat out of hell.

Deffo, a GT35 or equivalent for north of 500 - a GT3076, maybe 3082 for if you want just south of it. Don't know if the 5s block will play nicely in a celica, but the extra .2 in capacity and the extra strength of the block means it's a popular change after people have cracked a 3s block.

In the end, you pays your money and takes your chance. What works (even on a supposedly identical motor) may give very different results in your car.

 

It's time...